LINKS

Get Daniel's novel, Fire in the Canyon, on our Bookshop.org store.

See him on book tour at the dates listed on his website.

We are all now working on a series of critical essays about Bon iver.

TRANSCRIPT

Melissa: Hello, I'm Melissa Locker. 

Courtney: And I'm Courtney E. Smith. 

Melissa: And you are listening to Songs My Ex Ruined, the show where we talk about songs that have been ruined by our exes.

Melissa: We are thrilled to have on the podcast today Daniel Gumbiner, author of Fire in the Canyon, and one of my longtime editors who have never actually seen his face before, so this is extra exciting. I mean, not for anybody listening because they can't see your face, but I can. And so, hello! Nice to see your face! 

Daniel Gumbiner: Hey, great to be with you. 

Melissa: We tend to jump right into things. So, if you could just tell us right away a song that an ex has ruined for you?

Daniel Gumbiner: Well, the story that I'm going to tell starts in 2008 at Wesleyan University in Middletown, Connecticut, a small liberal arts college. I was a sophomore at the time. And I just come out there from the West Coast, trying to adapt to the East Coast, trying to learn how to be a, a hip East Coast sad boy, doing, doing my best. 

Courtney: Learn how to observe all four seasons?

Daniel Gumbiner: Yes, exactly. 

Melissa: Did you start wearing scarves? 

Daniel Gumbiner: I did start wearing scarves, for sure. And skinny jeans.

Melissa: Was that part of like your sad boy persona? 

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, yes.

Melissa: Okay, I figured.

 Daniel Gumbiner: I was like reading Kierkegaard, like the whole thing. 

Melissa: Oh, did you start smoking a pipe thinking you would make it look cool?

Daniel Gumbiner: No, but I was smoking some cigarettes. 

Melissa/Courtney: Okay, okay. Alright.

Daniel Gumbiner: So, you know, I was trying valiantly. It wasn't a natural fit, but I was trying to do it.

Melissa: But were they hand-rolled? Were they American Spirits? 

Daniel Gumbiner: They were Camels, actually. 

Melissa: Okay, so you're wearing your skinny jeans and your scarf and you're smoking your Camel and you met a girl. 

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, I just wanted to paint the portrait there for you for a second. So yeah, I meet this girl, very cool, sophisticated East Coast girl, through a friend of a friend, and I have this crush on her. And there was actually a really cool music scene at Wesleyan at the time. MGMT had just been there, and Das Racist was there at the time and Francis and the Lights. 

Courtney: Wow, Das Racist, I forgot about them.

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, it was a whole scene. It certainly felt like that to us. And it all orbited around this, what was called this anti-frat Eclectic, which no longer exists. It was shut down by the school. 

Melissa: For hazing? Because that would be ironic. 

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, I think for a lot of stuff. But it was the height of cool at Wesleyan. It was an invite-only thing. You had to get asked into it and all of the coolest upperclassmen were involved in Eclectic. And I have this crush on this girl, and then I subsequently find out that there are also these two seniors at Eclectic who are into her. So, I realized it's not going to go well for me and I just take a backseat a little bit. And then, somehow in some sort of like Hugh Grant movie, she like ends up picking me as the person she wants to date. And it was like this…

Melissa: Perfect rom com.

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, perfect rom com moment. I can't really believe it's happening, this is like toward the end of the semester. We start dating, it's really amazing, then I go on winter break and go back to California. And while I'm in California, she sends me Bon Iver's “Blood Bank,” which had just come out. And she was like, “I know you like Bon Iver.” And so of course I start listening to that song every day. That becomes the song of my winter break. This was really when Bon Iver was peaking, and it was great wintry music too, at the time. And so I'm listening to that every day, and it becomes obviously totally woven into the fabric of that relationship and my sense of it. And I come back to Wesleyan for the start of the spring semester. And stuff is not going well. I can tell that she's moving away from me. I don't exactly know why, but it feels bad. And on Valentine's Day, we go out to dinner for pho in town, which is something that we never did. Like, we never went out to dinner. And she ends up breaking up with me on Valentine's day. Which was, fortunately, the only time that's ever happened to me. But it was pretty brutal, it was pretty brutal. And I was left just wondering what had happened and it was never totally clear to me why we were breaking up or what had happened exactly. But obviously, that song becomes ruined for me instantly.

Melissa: Well, honestly though, it's better if the song was ruined for you than that pho was ruined for you. Cause I assume you've been doing pho since then. 

Daniel Gumbiner: Yes. 

Melissa:  And that shit's good. You don't want to lose that forever. Like Bon Iver, he can go, it's fine, but pho, no. 

Courtney: I don't know about that. If Bon Iver is your favorite artist, is he still your favorite artist? And did it creep outside of that one song? 

Daniel Gumbiner: I think I was already a little bit moving on from him at that point, you know? It was sort of like that wave was cresting. But, yeah, it definitely tinged all of his work. The end of the story is that, years later…  

Melissa: You just walked out of the pho restaurant, two separate, ways in Middletown, Connecticut. And never see each other again. 

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, pretty much. But years later, I was living in San Francisco in my like early 20s. And I got an email from her. It was this really long email, and it was an apology, essentially, for how she had handled things when I was a sophomore in college.And it was a really great email, in part because she kind of acknowledged that in writing the email she was looking to cleanse herself of the experience. And she kind of owned that, which I think is always the challenge in sending that kind of email. Like I think if there's someone who we've wronged in our life and we know that and we want to apologize, but we feel like there's something inherently selfish in, in pursuing that. And there is obviously always, there is an aspect of that, of wanting to clear the slate for yourself too. But she wrote the email in a way that I thought was really sensitively done in sort of acknowledging that and then also giving a, giving me a genuine apology for what had happened. So, that's kind of the end of the story, which I always, I think my takeaway from it was: If you feel like you need to send that email, like you can send it. Those emails can be sent, and they can be done well and thoughtfully. And I didn't feel any kind of way about her needing to write that to me. I just received it and it was like, I don't think about that relationship anymore these days at all, but that was a thoughtful note.

Courtney: Okay, I have a lot to say here. I have a lot of questions. I'm so happy that this is your story, and I'm so happy that it's coming from a man because this has been on my mind about someone who I dated in 2006, 2007. And I was a little older than you, I was in my 20s at this point. But I broke up with this guy after we've been together for six months. He was a great person, on paper great, but it just wasn't there for me. And I got the ick at some point and just physically felt ill having any kind of intimate contact with him anymore. 

Daniel Gumbiner:  That’s so tough, yeah.

Courtney: It's so tough, but I didn't know what it was either. So, whenever I broke it off, I didn't know what to tell him. I didn't want to tell him any of that because I didn't want him to think something was wrong with him. Nothing was wrong with him. He didn't do anything. It was me, but I didn't know what it was about me. And since then, I've learned so much more about that phenomenon. It wasn't even really called that or in culture at the time. And now I understand that was me scaring myself out of a healthy relationship, to a certain degree. We met one more time after that, and he was clearly really hurt and clearly wanted some more answers and I didn't have any to give him. But we haven't been in contact since then. Haven't lived in the same place even for quite a long time. And I have lately really been thinking about would I reach out to him? Would it mean anything? Should I leave it alone? Does he want to hear from me? If he just doesn't care, I would not do it and leave him to his happiness. I know he's with someone, has been in a relationship for a long time, seems perfectly happy, but if it might mean something or give him closure, I'd love to acknowledge that I was being a dick and that was really bad communication and that it definitely wasn't him, it was me.

Melissa: Have you considered writing a Bon Iver-style song in apology? 

Courtney: No, no. 

Melissa: I'm saying, like, we're talking about Bon Iver here, like, you could write a really heartfelt sort of song and just deliver it that way, and it would really be perfect. You could even ask Bon Iver to do it. 

Courtney: No. So, back to the sincerity here, Melissa. I mean, I'd love to know, you sort of summed up what you felt, but did you feel any sense of relief from finding any of that out? or closure or anything positive from it? 

Daniel Gumbiner: I think I did. And you know, with your example — that was just my experience of it. It's hard to say if everyone would react that way. Maybe, depending on the level of hurt or the proximity to when it happened, you would have a different reaction. I'm not sure. I mean, for me, it really did feel far away at that point. I almost felt a sense of relief for her, like, “Oh, you've been carrying this for so long, and I'm glad you got to get that off your chest, because truly, it's not with me anymore and I don't really feel it.” Yeah, I think there was also a sense of closure and, and I do think largely it was the same phenomenon, really. I think she had the ick, more or less, and just was kind of like, I'm not into this anymore. And when you're, you know, 19, 20 years old, you don't have the communication skills to gracefully exit something like that. Or even when you're older, it's always hard to exit something like that. 

Courtney: So, I've noticed every time I've broken up with a guy, they just leave and never want to hear anything else. Like, they have nothing else to say. And that's not my reaction to being broken up with. I'm like, “I'm going to need you to go into detail about what's happening with you and what do we do now? And what are your expectations?” And dudes are just like, “Okay, cool. Bye forever.” And, or maybe they'll pop up on my Facebook feed in a few years. Just a happy birthday or something.

Melissa: It just opinion that I'm like 80 percent dude. 

Daniel Gumbiner: I think people have different coping strategies for that. I mean, I have a friend who is just put up the wall, like it's over, not going to have any more communication. I tend to be someone who stays in touch with people I was in relationship with, whether we become friends or there's still some level of communication there. My friend and I actually had an idea for a podcast a while back that would be interviewing someone who had just gone through a breakup. And one of the hosts would bring the perspective of “maintain connection,” and the other host would be a “close the door” and that would be the kind of buddy comedy dynamic of the whole thing.

Courtney: I mean, I would listen to that, but I feel so bad for everybody who agrees to be on it. It’s always so hard when you just broke up to talk about it.

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, a little raw. Yeah. 

Melissa: I would so happily represent the never talk to them again side of things. 

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, do you think people divide one way or the other in terms of how they process that?

Melissa: Probably, although I do feel like people change though because it's like the first five years I'm like, “Eh, dead to me.” and then five years you run into them somewhere and you're like, “Hey, what's going on? Maybe I'll follow you on Instagram. Maybe maybe we'll say hi. But also please never write me a very long heartfelt email because I don't want it.” I do not want that. Although I would not say no — actually I would. So, I always think about, there was a guy who dumped me because I was a virgin. And I was always like, “I want an apology from that guy.” But in retrospect, that's actually a very healthy choice for everybody involved. He didn't want that. I have no idea if I would have wanted that. You know what? Good choice. Well done. No need to apologize. 

Daniel Gumbiner: Maybe you could write him a letter and tell him what a great choice it was. 

Melissa: Yeah, thank you so much for dumping me. I truly appreciate that. Yeah, great idea guys. I’m gonna do that. 

Courtney: I’m still on the fence about if I’m going to reach out to this person or not. I just don't know. I don't know. I find it hard to fathom anybody would want to hear it. But… 

Melissa: Sometimes it's fun to run across a burning bridge. “One more thing to say!” 

Daniel Gumbiner: You can also always write the letter and then see how it feels. Sit on it. Wait.

Melissa: I will be happy to edit it for you.

Courtney: Yeah, like Daniel, you guys have to both know if you're a person who gets paid to write, you don't write anything down unless somebody's paying you or it's going to be very gratifying in some way. 

Melissa: Like those Yelp reviews? Yeah. No one pays me to write those, but they are satisfying. 

Courtney: You know, I went through a span for a little while of just trying to make the worst and dirtiest jokes I could think of on Yelp, and it was satisfying for the likes. I did it for the likes. Just to totally anonymous people. 

Melissa: So what about like, that rice was extra sticky, if you know what I mean? Like, what are we talking about? 

Courtney: There was, there was a diner in the Meatpacking District near my apartment in Chelsea, and my review of it was: “That was the best sausage I've ever put in my mouth in the Meatpacking District.”

Melissa: Okay, that's pretty good. I'll accept that. I kind of want to go back to early 2000s Wesleyan though. 

Daniel Gumbiner: Oh, sure. 

Melissa: I feel like there's so many people who sort of wandered through that campus and came out the other side into the media industry. 

Courtney: Oh my God, yeah.

Melissa: What was it like on campus then? Where is everyone wearing scarves and smoking Camels? What is an eclectic? Like you talked about this like we would have any idea what that was. 

Courtney: Yeah, what does that mean?

Daniel Gumbiner: It was like a frat, but for the mid-aughts hipster, essentially. And it had a very exclusive feel, you know, sort of like a club that you wanted to get into. They had a lot of shows.

Melissa: So like Soho House? 

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, yeah, a little bit. There were a lot of very smart, creative people there. People who were very motivated too, and sort of knew what they wanted to do with their creativity, which was not where I was at in my life. I felt very uncomfortable at first at Wesleyan. I was coming from public school. I didn't like know how to write a paper. I thought I was smart going to Wesleyan. And then I got there and, I don't know how to do any of this. So a lot of it was like me adapting to that and trying to figure out what I was doing. But there were these very motivated, polished seeming, creative people who knew they wanted to be, you know, like an abstract expressionist already. And were pursuing that very clearly. 

Melissa: You know what I'd like to be? Mom, dad, I'd like to be an abstract expressionist. That’s great honey, please spend $80,000 a year on college.

Courtney: Yeah, these are the dreams of rich kids, like come on. 

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, yeah, that was kind of the scene. I took some writing classes. My professors was the late Paul Lafarge, who was great and he had a big impact on me for sure. I loved his class. There's a big sort of film contingent there too. You know, people who were going into the film industry, a lot of people who — there was the Wesleyan mafia that they had, which was Wesleyan alumni in the film industry. And there was sort of a pathway from Wesleyan into that world. So a lot of people were going in that direction. 

Courtney: I'm really fascinated by the idea of pseudo frat for hipsters, because this is just flies in the face of how hipsterdom worked. I don't know, I don't know where the NYU kids hung out because they never were in the same place as us, like the media industry, music industry, people of New York. But with all the hipsters there, it was like, you have to find the cheapest and easiest to get into place but the thing is, you just don't tell people about it so they don't know until it trickles down. And when it does, and too many of them know about it, you go to the next place. So, it's this hidden social life and the idea of it being static and something you apply to get into is just like very missing it.

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, the process is mysterious of getting in. You got invited by someone. I actually did get invited when I was a freshman. I don't know by whom. And I didn't end up doing it. 

Courtney: Interesting. 

Daniel Gumbiner: Because it didn't feel, I didn't feel like connected to it enough culturally, I felt, and so I didn't do it. But that was how it worked. You got like a sort of secret invite. You know, like a secret society or other frats.

Courtney: That actually makes you cooler than all of them, first of all. For real. And second, what the…? This is just…

Melissa: I would be very curious to know how many people from this Eclectic went on to work for Vice Magazine. 

Daniel Gumbiner: They may have already been working for Vice magazine. But yeah, that was the scene that like MGMT and came out of, and those other bands that I was mentioning. They would come back and play shows there. The whole music scene sort of. orbited around Eclectic and people playing shows at Eclectic. 

Courtney: I wondered where those hippies came from. They look too clean to really be hippies, but something was going on there. And how they landed immediately on a major label. That was interesting too. 

Melissa: It's all through the Wesleyan Mafia. Clearly.

Courtney: Obviously. Now I know. 

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, I'm going back there in February to do a reading. So I'm excited to see what the Wesleyan kid is like today.

Courtney: Yeah, you're gonna need to report back on that, please.  

Melissa: Daniel's very own Fire in the Canyon — can you give us like the back of the book recap so people can know what they're in for? 

Daniel Gumbiner: Sure, well, this is a novel about a guy, Ben, who lives in the Sierra foothills in California with his wife Ada, who's a novelist. And they have one son, Yoel, and he comes back for a party that they're throwing. And while he's there, there's a wildfire that comes through the area and they're forced to evacuate. And that sort of sets in motion the events of the story. And it's kind of about the different ways in which each member of the family responds to that happening to their community. They all sort of go in different directions from there. 

Melissa: When you write a character who is a novelist, as a novelist, do you make her likable? Do you make her unlikable? Do you make her like a stereotype? Like how do you as a novelist, tackle the job of writing about a novelist?

Daniel Gumbiner: I think, obviously, it's a little easier. I don't have to do any research about it to understand it better. But I think that character is pretty different from me in a lot of ways, but we have some similarities. The tricky thing with writing that character was really figuring out how much to get into the detail of her work. How far into the sort of metatextual direction I wanted to go with it. And ultimately I didn't really want it to be a story about stories, exactly, which is I think can easily happen when you have a writer character involved. Obviously, that is part of that character in some sense, so I think that was Something that was tricky to work through with it. In terms of her being likable or not likable, I'm not sure. I guess you guys will have to tell me what you think. I didn't think about that much as I was writing the character. I was more thinking about what her motivations were and what she was going through in response to everything that happened.

Courtney: I think that's the best way to put a character profile together, honestly, because you, as the author, have to like all of them and have to be dedicated to all of their stories. And let the reader decide if it's a cipher for themselves or if they're outside of the story and how they feel about these people that you've created.

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, that's so true. I mean, I think all of the characters have something of me in them, and I don't know if the writer character necessarily even has more of that than the other characters. But yeah, they're all channeling some sort of voice that's connected to me in a way. 

Courtney: Does that ever make you feel slightly crazy whenever you're reading the dialogue or trying to separate the identities?

Daniel Gumbiner: Yes. You know, you want to make sure each character is distinct and a whole self. So that's also something I'm thinking about as I'm working. 

Melissa: And then, since you're based in California, have you had to live through wildfires yet? How much experience have you had with them?

Courtney: That's what I was wondering too. 

Daniel Gumbiner: I haven't been evacuated for a fire or anything like that. But everyone in California these days encounters them in some way, really. I mean, just a couple of weeks ago, we had a bunch of consecutive smoke days where you don't really want to go outside. You can't exercise. The AQI is really bad. And there's people around you too, friends and family, who are affected in various ways. Some of our family friends were in the path of the Calder fire, which was in the foothills. So, I haven't been affected directly, but it's sort of something that like permeates every summer here these days and it's, it's a part of everyone's life.

Melissa:  Yeah, it's terrifying. I have a friend from Chico and the Paradise and Camp fires just wiped out so much of her town. And it is so terrifying that this is becoming more and more common. And then the fact that these fires happen and then they just impact so much of the world. The Canadian wildfires that turned the sky orange in New York City or turn the sky orange in Washington, D.C. And just what we're doing to our planet, which is admittedly a different podcast. Everyone go listen to Trails by Amy Westerveld. But yeah, it is terrifying. 

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, the power of these things and the scale, you know, the Canada wildfires, there's just nothing that can be done to stop something of that size and scope. And it's humbling, as it should be, for all of us to witness that and realize that, yeah, we are very small in comparison to that even if we think of ourselves as being able to control our environment in all these ways. 

Courtney: Was there a particular instance with the California wildfires that prompted the idea for the structure for your novel?

Daniel Gumbiner:  This novel sort of started with this conversation that I had with a friend of mine who lives in Sonoma, who lost his barns in a wildfire up there. And I was having dinner with him, and he was telling me these stories about all of these people that he met, his neighbors, who he came into contact with in ways that he hadn't prior to the fire. There was this guy he met at a laundromat who was obviously this very wealthy guy who never went to laundromats, but he was there and because he had to be. And started talking to my friend, and his neighbors from up the hill who came to check on him and he had never met them, but they're still in touch now. I thought that was interesting and it seemed like the terrain of a novel to me, the idea of how something like this would affect and transform the social fabric of a community. And so that was the starting point for it, and then of course the book changed in a thousand ways, but that was the initial origin of me beginning to write it.

Courtney: Super interesting. One of the more remarkable, I think, things that has come into my life because of the California fires is the knowledge that Guy Fieri is constantly raising money and cooking for firefighters and cooking for families that are displaced. And it's like his thing. It's very kind, but it's also just, ‘What” I'm sorry, who's doing what?”

Melissa: He's like, he's like the 311 version of Jose Andres. 

Courtney: I would say yes, and I think it's very kind of him to do it. I've talked to him about it, and I know it comes from a good place, but I'm just like, it's still baffling.

Melissa: I know, but just think how surreal it would be. It's like, you live through this like horrifying experience. You've had to evacuate, you've lost everything, and suddenly Guy Fieri's there, serving you barbecue. 

Courtney: Very strange, very surreal. 

Melissa: What has my life become?

Courtney: That kind of makes me think of the inspiration for your novel. Just like the weirdness that can happen in a life-threatening emergency, and the weird kind of ties that can pop up.

Daniel Gumbiner: Exactly, yeah, yeah. It kind of breaks down those everyday structures that are kind of invisible, but are there and ordering our lives. And then an event like that can kind of remove that. 

Melissa: Did you, because I know you generally like music and think about music, did you have a soundtrack for this book in your head?

Daniel Gumbiner: I don't think I did. What did I listen to while I was working on this book? It was mostly classical, I would say. I tend to not listen to lyrics while I'm writing. But one of the characters actually also listens to classical music, too. And, yeah, I think that was like mostly the soundtrack that I was working to. If it were put to music, I think it would have a different soundtrack than that. 

Melissa: Yeah, no, I'm the same way. I cannot listen to music when I work. I know a lot of people have music on constantly, but I can't do it. I just find music so distracting because I like it so much. And I start listening to lyrics and I started thinking about the band and I started thinking about this and then, I cannot have it on if I have to get any work done. What I can't have on is Murder, She Wrote. That can be on constantly. I will just have it on in the background. I can get any amount of work done, doesn't matter because I'm not honestly missing anything and the plot is just nice little background noise. 

Courtney: I think it depends on what you're working on. Like when I'm doing administrative or organizational work, I can have music on and it's fine. But if I'm writing, no. I like to listen to things in a foreign language. I've gone through a Mexican rock phase recently, but I love Brazilian or French pop or any of that cause I don't know what they're saying. Like, it's not pulling my attention. 

Melissa: That sounds great. I like that idea.

Courtney: I mean, I'm going diving into music from India next. Cause why not? 

Melissa: Yeah. There's a lot of great music from like Senegal, Nigeria. 

Courtney: Perfect. I'll add it to the list. Something in French because they were colonized by the French? Perfect. 

Melissa: Maybe we should make an entire playlist of music that will not distract you while you work. 

Courtney: Oh, yeah. So maybe listeners, let us know if you'd like that.

Daniel Gumbiner: That would be a hit.

 Courtney: Novelists, let us know.

Daniel Gumbiner: Some lo-fi beats.

Melissa: Oh, I love the lo-fi beats.

Courtney: No more lo-fi beats, no.

Courtney: I want to hear a little bit more about Bon Iver, and your slow fall out of love with the records.

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah. Well, I mean... 

Melissa: Who replaced Bon Iver on your playlist? 

Daniel Gumbiner: Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think he's so closely tied to, I feel, like that phase in my life. And it's funny because “Blood Bank”, I think, does feel very associated with that breakup. But, ironically, it's like the other album that's actually like the breakup album. But that was not as directly tied for me. I think I just moved on and was listening to something else on like Daytrotter Sessions after that. 

Melissa: I forgot about Daytrotter. 

Courtney: Me too, but that's a good call.

Daniel Gumbiner: I mean, he was a big part of that phase of my life.

Courtney: How did you feel about his collaboration with Taylor Swift? 

Daniel Gumbiner: Good for him, I think. Got to get on board the Swifty train. I really mostly stopped following him after that period. I would say “Blood Bank” was the end. And in retrospect, maybe more directly connected to that relationship ending than I realized, but I think also it was just a natural you move on to something else.

Courtney: Yeah, I mean if he didn't get you back in the Grammy-winning era, then I think it's pretty tied into an emotional blockage, would be my guess. 

Daniel Gumbiner: Right. Did you, did, did you two have a relationship to Bon Iver? Were you Bon Iver fans or was that never like a ship you were on? 

Melissa: Nope. 

Courtney: I never really liked it. Yeah. I mean, I liked the single. What was the single off of For Emma Forever? 

Daniel Gumbiner: “Skinny Love,” was that it?

Courtney: Yes, yeah. “Skinny Love” was fine. I liked it okay enough, but… 

Daniel Gumbiner: You were like, “I don't need to feel like I'm alone in the woods in Wisconsin. That's not a sensation I'm craving.”

Melissa: No, I feel like his target really is sad boys in scarves.

Courtney: Sad men. Yeah, sad, sad.

Daniel Gumbiner: That's where I was at in that time. 

Courtney: It was never on repeat for me, no. 

Melissa: Yeah, yeah, no. I got nothing on Bon Ivar. He really is one of those artists I'm like, okay, yeah, that guy. I got nothing.

Courtney: MGMT, I was into it. Passion Pit, yes, sign me up. I just wasn't that sad at the moment. 

Melissa: By the way, Dan, did you call it MGMT “management”? 

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, you know, so…

Melissa: I go back and forth with that. What are they supposed to be called? 

Daniel Gumbiner: I always heard it was supposed to be “management.” But I've heard other people say MGMT too. But yeah, that's one of those mysteries. I don't know which way you're supposed to go on that. 

Courtney: I think it's whatever feels good, do it. That seems to be the vibe.

Melissa: So, I know that you are heading out on book tour soon. Do you have any dates you want to shout out? When are you going to be at Wesleyan? 

Daniel Gumbiner: Well, I'm not going to be in Wesleyan until February. 

Courtney: Got plenty of time to plan your trip and buy tickets, everybody.

Daniel Gumbiner:  Middletown, come on out. November, I'll be back in the Bay Area. I don't know the exact dates, but I'm doing an event, I'm doing it in West Portal. West Portal Bookshop. And I'm doing another event at St. Mary's College on the 15th, I think it is, of November. 

Melissa: Do you have a website where people can go and look up these dates? 

Daniel Gumbiner: That’s such a great idea, Melissa. I do. It’s my name, danielgumbiner.com. And it has all the events.

Courtney: For a minute there, I was pretty sure you were gonna say, “Hey, yeah, I should build one.” 

Melissa: Yeah, so everyone should go to danielgumbiner.com. Well done on not getting the dot net.

Courtney: Yeah or a dash in the name, which is very common. A lot of people who are slow on the uptake.

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, well, it's not the most common name. So it's a little easier. 

Courtney: It helps. We'll put the link in our show notes, though, if you want to check out where this book tour is going. 

Melissa: We're going to sell your book in our bookshop.org, which I'm pretty sure no one has ever bought a book from, but this could be the first one.

Courtney: And all of you should be shopping from bookshop.org by the way, because it is…

 Melissa: Just in general. 

Courtney: Yes, because they give more money to independent booksellers as opposed to big conglomerates who Sadie Dupuis would tell you to strike against. 

Melissa: Yes. Wonderful. And Daniel, I know you have a book tour and you've already written, this is your second novel, is that correct?

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah. 

Melissa: Yeah. So, are you already cooking up your next one? Is it about a young college kid wearing a lot of scarves? 

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, it's actually a series of critical essays on Bon Iver. 

Melissa: Perfect.  Can't wait to not read them. 

Courtney: I can't wait to go to the Bon Iver show and ask him to autograph a copy.

Daniel Gumbiner: Yeah, I'm working on some stuff. I'm not exactly sure what the next thing is going to be, but I have a few projects. I'm moving forward. 

Melissa: That's always exciting. 

Courtney: It was great to have you on. And also, it was great to have somebody who has stayed broken up from a critical darling former favorite, so that we could totally make fun of that band for the whole time. Truly, that never happens. 

Daniel Gumbiner: Absolutely. It was great. 

Melissa: Congratulations on publishing the book and thank you for coming on the show. 

Daniel Gumbiner: Of course. It was a blast. Thanks for having me.