Delia Cai is a brilliant writer, so it’s so surprise that talking to her about exes and music is a total delight. In this episode, she discusses a college…what would we call it? Situationship? Missed connection? Emotionally but not physically intimate relationship that’s more than a friendship? Whatever it was, he’s definitely an ex. And so, of course, he ruined a song.
LINKS
Get a copy of Delia’s book, Central Places, which is discussed in this episode.
And subscribe to Delia’s newsletter, Deez Links.
Courtney would love to share her writing from decades ago on MTV Local with you, but it’s been pulled off the internet — of course. If you want to read some extremely old stuff by her, there is this.
And thanks to Rock ‘N Load mag for the support!
TRANSCRIPT
Melissa: Welcome back to Songs My Ex Ruined. This episode, Courtney and I are talking to Delia Cai, an author and a reporter for Vanity Fair and a person who has had a song ruined for them by an ex. So Delia, can you please tell us about a song an ex has ruined for you?
Delia Cai: I had to think back to college, and there’s definitely this one song that just looms large in my association with college and that whole time. And it’s the song who knows “Who Cares” by Local Natives, which should really like give you a sense of just like the kind of person and the kind of groups I was hanging out with in college where we thought like Local Natives are like the coolest, most indie group ever to walk the earth.
Melissa: The title is already really evocative. I need to know what the story behind that is.
Delia Cai: So it’s such a beautiful song, sort of very romantic. It’s about like letting your guard down, like letting your walls down around someone. And this song was introduced to me by this guy who…we were not in a relationship de facto. Is that the word? Is de facto when it’s like official, or it’s like almost official?
Courtney: You hadn’t had the conversation about being an official couple, but you were doing couple things together.
Delia Cai: Yes.
Melissa: This sounds like a very PG-rated podcast. All of a sudden, we were doing couple things together.
Courtney: Well, you know, that can mean intimacy, but it can also mean like spending a lot of time together. Especially in college when you have a lot of time, a lot of free time.
Delia Cai: Yes.
Courtney: And showing up at events like you’re a couple, but without actually being a couple officially.
Delia Cai: This was one of those like pseudo relationships that I think a lot of people get into around college, especially when you, like, have your first smartphone and you can text to your heart’s content, right? So I met this guy when I was a freshman, and he was a junior in a class, and we would talk to each other every day. We were constantly texting. We were constantly just like talking about what was going on in our lives. I like would go over to the apartment and meet his roommates, and we would just watch TV, and it was very PG. But like the emotional intimacy was off the charts. We basically did this for two years on and off, but I was so scared to have that conversation. When it, looking back, it was kind of insane because I was like, you guys are talking every single day. You keep him updated on everything you do. You feel very close, but you haven’t had the talk. And he doesn’t really invite you to hang out with his friends, and he doesn’t really come and hang out.
Melissa: I’m getting serious like Taylor Swift vibes right now.
Delia Cai: Yeah.
Melissa: Very Taylor Swift vibes.
Delia Cai: Very on theme today, yeah.
Courtney: I’m feeling this is very familiar. I had a lot of these kinds of relationships in college, yeah. It was either you go- two years is a long time, yeah. Usually, mine lasted six months or less.
Delia Cai: Yeah, it was a bit on and off cause I would find these moments of clarity where I’d be like, “What am I doing?” I’m spending all my time talking to this person. And it just seemed like this third rail that was like, if we don’t ever talk about it, we never have to address it, and we can just have this like nice companionship, right? So it’s like it wasn’t a relationship by the letter of the law, but like in every other way, it was. He definitely counts as an ex. And so the story behind the song was, at one point, over that first summer in college, I was interning in Chicago. I think he was home in St. Louis. And we were just Zooming, you know, as one does with someone who’s your non-boyfriend. And he showed me this song, and I was like, wow, this is such a beautiful song. And, of course, I went in and like read into the lyrics, and I was like, “Wow, it’s about like letting your guard down with someone.” And I was like, “It’s a message as soon as I get back on campus, like, you know, I’m gonna be a sophomore, he’s gonna be senior. This is gonna happen.” And, of course, it never did. I think it honestly just petered out in a really not dramatic way. But it’s one of those songs now where even if I listen to it just in passing, all of it comes rushing back. And I feel embarrassed. I feel sad, you know? So it feels like ruined. But it definitely is also, in some ways, like a very beautiful time capsule of a very confusing relationship.
Melissa: So do you think he knew what song he was sending you, or do you think- we have an ongoing theme here, which is that men don’t listen to the lyrics. And they have no idea what the hell song they’re sending.
Courtney: Never.
Delia Cai: Oh my God. I don’t think it was a message, whether or not he listened to the lyrics. I think he was literally like, “Oh, here this like cool song. Like I’ll just share it with you.” You know, and then not knowing I would like emotionally imprint on it.
Courtney: Well, that’s nice. I mean, it’s so nice to have people share songs with you that you fall in love with, but it’s also interesting how it gets confused with the feeling of love you have for that person.
Delia Cai: Yes, yes.
Melissa: But also, men are dumb. They also just don’t seem to realize, like, if you send someone a song, like especially someone who you have this on-again, off-again sort of relationship that’s never been quite DTRed, and you’re just sort of in this weird limbo. If you send someone a song like that, they’re probably gonna interpret into it. They’re gonna read into that song and just be like, “Oh, it’s a message to me. I understand.” It all has become clear. I mean, come on. You have to, and if you don’t, you’re just being intentionally naive.
Courtney: I always do interpret the song. Do you, Delia, do you like always if somebody sends you something, even if it’s just like, “I think you’d like this.” Are you looking for the message?
Delia Cai: Yeah, I am very much like lyrics forward when it comes to any music. So it’s like definitely the part that I connect with most. And then, of course, if it’s coming from someone, especially like someone special, I definitely read into it. Such is our nature.
Melissa: Yeah, you have to, I mean, they’re sending you a song, obviously, there’s hidden messages all throughout it, telling them how much they like you.
Courtney: One would assume, but…
Delia Cai: One would assume.
Courtney: …for many men, apparently not. The scenario you’re describing is so familiar to me. I was writing for MTV Local as an internship about the music scene in Houston one summer. And this one guy emails me because he didn’t like something I wrote that was frankly really scathing about Houston music and how it wasn’t very good cause it wasn’t at the time. And he was like, “We should hang out and I’ll play you some records because there are some great bands here that you should know and you’re not talking about any of them. You’re talking about these other people.” And so I took him up on it. I was like, “Alright cool. Let’s do it. I’ll come over to your house and you can play me some records.” Which, in retrospect, not a safe idea. Don’t do that if you’re listening to the at home. But we started dating, or just making out? I, it was never clear, like we didn’t talk about it, but we talked about music a lot. And he actually was one of the few guys that did listen to the lyrics. And he played me a lot of records, but there was one day. When I was in college when I lived in Houston, I let my hair be curly because it was too humid there to not- I couldn’t control it really, and it would get really big because of density and humidity.
Melissa: Hmm, Texas hair.
Courtney: So he puts on Mercury Rev’s “Car Wash Hair,” and it’s just like all about, “Wanna ask, but I just stare. Can I run my hands through your car wash hair?”
Courtney: I’m just listening to the music a little bit, and then I notice he’s looking at me, waiting for a reaction. He’s waiting for me to hear the lyrics and understand that this is like, “Haha, funny, you have wild, out-of-control hair.” And I was like, I don’t know if this is romantic or not. In my memory it is, but sometimes I pick it apart, and I’m just like, was that romantic or was that like childish? I’m not sure what was happening here. But I love that song, and I think it’s really beautiful. And it was my introduction to Mercury Rev on the whole. So I put this story in my book, Record Collecting for Girls. And for all the men that ended up in that book, I sent them the chapter that was about them to make sure it was okay and that I wasn’t getting anything wrong, and they didn’t feel offended by it. And he read it. And this was like a decade, more than a decade after we dated. And he was like, “Oh wow, you called me your boyfriend. That’s really sweet. Do you think that we were a boyfriend and girlfriend?” and I was just like, “What? What do you mean?
Melissa: Oh no.
Courtney: Because we didn’t talk about it. And he was like, “No, I think it’s great and I’d be honored that you called me that.” And I was just like, “What did you think we were?” Do I wanna know what word you would apply to this relationship? Good lord.
Delia Cai: Oh my God, I relate so hard to that.
Courtney: You could have just not said any of that, dude. Just be like, that’s really nice. Thanks.
Delia Cai: The hair thing, that strikes me as like he was so proud of himself for noticing and then making this like other connection. That it’s sort of like, oh my God. It seems really misguided in, in like a childlike way, if not like childish.
Courtney: Yes.
Delia Cai: Yeah. I, I was listening to it, and I was like, oh yeah, I have mixed feelings about this.
Courtney: Well, tell me about the mixed feelings you have about your song.
Delia Cai: It’s still a song that I’ll listen to now and then just cause I, I do like love it. But it never doesn’t feel a little ironic because it’s this very sweet, like, uplifting song. And I remember thinking like a) this is a hidden message. The b) like, oh, you know, just like that feeling that the song’s about letting someone in about, kind of reaching this like very euphoric state of bliss and like trust. It like makes me so sad. I’m like, oh, we never really had that. We thought we were so close. But we couldn’t even address the elephant in the room. After two years, I remember, like, throughout my 20s, sometimes when I revisit it, I’ll cycle through thought-like stages where I’m like, “He was a little older. He, he must have just been bored, maybe. He was actually very cruel in leading me on.” But I think now that I’m like older than, you know, either of us ever were, during all of that, I’m just like, “Oh, I think he was very scared, had no idea what to do either.” And me being so naive and young like that kind of cut him some slack where he was like, “Well, and she doesn’t seem upset. I’ll continue sending her these songs and doing whatever I want.”
Melissa: Okay, so did you guys ever officially break up? If you didn’t officially get together or did it, are you still in this? You can tell us it’s a safe space.
Delia Cai: Yeah, I’m honestly trying to remember how it ended because, at one point, I went out and got a boyfriend. And so we were just like, “Oh, we’re friends now.”
Melissa: Did you pick one up at the store?
Delia Cai: Yeah, I was like, I’m tired of this. I went out and got a boyfriend. In some ways, it was very easy because me and this guy, like things were never, never got physical, which is even more like insane in some ways, that I was just like, we just would sit and have conversations.
Melissa: Oh my God, I was the queen of those.
Delia Cai: Right?
Melissa: You just never get physical but just hang out all the time. And I’m like, have this whole like romantic idea in my head. And then, in retrospect, I would just be like, “Did I just have like a pen pal? Like what was that?”
Delia Cai: Right. Yeah, I was like, was I offering therapy
Courtney: That’s what it is. Like you’re getting to the heart of it now. Cause we talk about this in a way that- back whenever the situations we are all talking about were happening, we didn’t describe it as that. But what was happening was emotional labor for these men.
Delia Cai: Yeah, it was like they were lonely. They wanted someone to talk to. Here’s someone who is willing and able, and also like probably very nurturing in a way that when you’re a college dude, you don’t, you don’t just like get at the store.
Courtney: Yeah. Well, none of your friends can give you that. They’re not emotionally mature.
Melissa: Right, and having someone pay attention to you is always nice.
Delia Cai: Yeah, yeah.
Courtney: It always is. And maybe that’s what we got out of that. Having someone pay attention to you is nice. Like, I certainly enjoyed that part.
Delia Cai: Yeah, I’m trying to think of like how it ended. I think literally it- well, I mean he graduated. So that’s probably what happened was like he graduated, we probably said something to each other in terms of, like, congrats.
Melissa: You, you signed your yearbook, like, stay cool.
Courtney: Have a great summer.
Delia Cai: Yeah. And then I think we literally just never spoke again.
Melissa: Oh, no, no. That’s sad.
Delia Cai:I know, right?
Courtney: Can I just recommend that you write a book and put him in it and then send it to him, and then you’ll talk again? You’ll get to get the scoop on exactly what he really thought was going on.
Delia Cai: Oh my God. In times like these, I am so thankful for Facebook, Instagram, because now and then, I would just like, just see like what he’s doing. And I would just- the pleasure of feeling nothing. Of being like, “Oh, so that’s interesting. He’s doing this. Okay. Like, now I’m bored.” You know? Yeah. Like it felt like the spell was broken.
Melissa: I do have to say one of the worst parts about kind of being interested in a string of artsy weirdos? None of them update their Facebook. None of ’em update their Instagram. They’re like there. Sometimes you’ll see they like watched a story or something, but you’re just like, there’s no reciprocity. I can’t stalk them. And I’m like, come on, man. It’s not fair.
Courtney: Can I tell you that doesn’t just stop with the college and high school weirdos, though? Like as an adult in the last handful of years with someone who follows me on Instagram and will randomly watch or like send a heart, and we talk absolutely never. What are you doing? You’re an adult man.
Melissa: Yeah, social media is so weird. Or my friend was dating a guy, got her heart crushed by him. She blocked him on Instagram, but his corporate account is still out there, still watching her stories occasionally. And she’s like, what do I do? And I’m like, just let him watch. Live your best life. Let ’em watch.
Delia Cai: That’s really funny.
Melissa: So Delia, Courtney suggested you write a book, but you already did. How much of it is pulled from real life?
Delia Cai: So my novel Central Places – the main character, Audrey – her background is basically my background. Like, grew up in central Illinois. Parents are Chinese immigrants. She pretty much hated growing up in this tiny town, and feeling really different and feeling really alienated and also just not getting them along with their parents. And so in a very like kind of Hallmark holiday rom com fashion, she’s now in her mid-20s and she’s got a job and a life and this like shiny nice boyfriend living in, in New York. And her boyfriend has just proposed, and so she realizes like, okay, she can’t put off bringing him home to visit her parents any longer. She’s pretty much stayed away since leaving, like for college. And so the book is, is sort of this exercise where it’s like, I’ve never had to do this. I’ve sometimes thought about like maybe, you know, maybe this is the guy that I bring home? Never gotten to that point. And so, in some ways, this novel sort of answers the question of, like, what if I brought one of, especially like from my early 20s, very like nice, liberal, white, Brooklyn guys who seem like the answer to a lot of questions that I’m searching for at the time in my life. What if I brought one of them home to meet my parents, to tour my very small town and to even meet people I went to high school with? What would that be like? That part of it is all conjecture, but the heart of it is, is very true.
Courtney: And what is the soundtrack for this book? I’d love to hear. Are there any songs that make it into the book, or what were you listening to while you were writing the book?
Delia Cai: Yeah, so one of the twists, I mean, this isn’t giving anything away, but. When Audrey’s home with her fiance, she ends up running into her old high school crush, who was like her best guy friend, who she never really told him how she felt. And she had been so embarrassed like of that crush that after she went to New York, she just never talked to him again. And so she runs into him, and like it, it kind of opens up this whole can of worms cause she just starts remembering everything. The basis of her friendship with this guy is their shared love for like 2007, 2008 era pop punk. Like the Warped Tour kind of emo. And that’s only the music I grew up with in high school, and so I kind of just wanted to make part of the novel. A love letter to all of the emo kids who listen to songs about like how much it sucks living in a small town. What they bonded over. So, that’s like the soundtrack. It’s a lot of like Mayday Parade, Fall Out Boy, All Time Low. Like people that I like, bands that I didn’t know that many other teenagers were listening to. It was like me and my friends listening to but we were on MySpace.
Melissa: You thought it was all like middle-aged moms?
Delia Cai: Oh, I think we just thought we were really unique.
Courtney: Unique, yeah, because there was MySpace to show you things, but it didn’t create the same like sense of closeness that the internet has now, where you could tell how many people are stans of things.
Delia Cai: Exactly, yeah. So we, we just thought, we were like, oh, we know about these bands on MySpace. And we watched their YouTube videos. But we had no idea how big that fandom really was. So it felt really special at that time.
Courtney: It did. It was so interesting. That whole scene was so big, and you could tell the kids in it didn’t know how big it was. This is when I was working at MTV, and we were starting to play Fallout Boy on mtvU. And like we started them with an online voting poll. And the numbers of people they could get to come vote on things just by posting on the Fall Out Boy message board on their website was insanity. It was crazy.
Delia Cai: Oh my God.
Courtney: Everybody was like, wait, something’s going on with this whole thing. So let’s try more of these bands. All Time Low is another big one. Mayday Parade was another big one. Taking Back Sunday, like all that stuff. Just, it was crazy the fans that they had harnessed together, and they were doing such a better job of creating a community than pop music could have ever.
Delia Cai: Yeah, yeah. Cause it was so like DIY in, in that whole scene. And when you were in the fandom, you sort of felt like, “Oh, he’s just another guy. But also maybe I’ll write some fan fiction about him.” Like a very weird, a very weird fandom.
Melissa: Yes, Pete Wentz fan fiction!
Courtney: Pete Wentz. Was this also the Tumblr era? Like would that have been where the fanfic was showing up?
Delia Cai: Definitely, definitely. Yeah, wow, this really takes me back.
Melissa: That’s what we’re here for.
Courtney: I mean, you’re the one that put it in your book.
Delia Cai: I know, I know.
Courtney: You’re taking us back. So you have never actually done the taking someone home for the holidays thing?
Delia Cai: No, no, and it’s funny because like growing up, I always thought, you know, what makes me really different is being Asian, is being Chinese American. I wasn’t until I moved to New York that I would realize like, “Oh, my thing is not being Asian in this room. Like I’m the weirdo because I’m from the Midwest.” I’m from a very small town in the Midwest. So it’s like, I think, almost reconciling like even that part of my identity. Because like this joke is sort of that like her fiance, Ben, he is like down with learning some Mandarin. And he is so excited to meet her parents and to try their authentic cooking, but like when he wants to go get breakfast or something, the best bagel place in town is at Panera. And he was just like, wait, what? He cannot handle like, almost like the small town Midwest part of her background. Cause he’s just like, God, there’s like nothing to do here. And she’s like, yeah, I know. And so, so like, it’s, that’s supposed to be kind of funny in that like, he’s so like, oh, I accept your, like heritage. I, you know, I support you. But then he’s just like, I hate, I hate this place. And she’s like, yeah, that’s great. That’s the whole point.
Melissa: This is why we leave. And then, yeah.
Courtney: It’s really funny, and it’s really true. I’m also from a small town in Texas, and I have brought one person home really recently, and that’s it. It’s always been like embarrassing to think about doing, to a certain degree, cause it’s like, you really have to adjust your expectations. Like okay, we’re gonna go on a trip, and it’s gonna be terrible.
Delia Cai: We’re gonna drive around a lot. That’s gonna be the main activity. And that’s it. And now you know why I left.
Melissa: Yeah, my mom used to live at this very small town in eastern Washington, and they’re- literally the most exciting thing to do was that there was a grocery store that had chicken fried Jojo’s, which are basically potato wedges, but we call ’em Jojo’s. Anyway, they were chicken fried Jojos. It was literally the only reason to go to this town whatsoever. There was nothing else to do. But those were good. I have pulled. I’ve been like driving cross country….
Delia Cai: I love some destination Jojo’s.
Melissa: Yeah, right? Destination Jojos. Like, I have been on the highway and just been like, we’re only like 20 minutes. Like my mom doesn’t live there anymore, but we’re like 20 minutes from the store. We could, we could go.
Delia Cai: I love that.
Melissa: Worth it. Yeah, I haven’t found them anywhere else, so you know.
Courtney: I’ve never heard of them before. This is, I’m learning new things all the time.
Melissa: I’m just saying if you can deep fry your carbohydrates, they’re even better.
Courtney: Obviously.
Melissa: Things we do recommend, though, chicken fried Jojo’s.
Courtney: Yes.
Melissa: And writing a book.
Courtney: Writing a book, I do recommend it. Would do you, did you like the process of writing a book, Delia?
Delia Cai: It felt like an exorcism. You know, where like the process, you’re just like, God, like this is excruciating. But then, after you’ve done it, you’re just like, I’m good now. Like all, all the darkness and anxiety is in there, you know?
Courtney: Yeah, it’s like exfoliating but for your soul. I found it really weird, though, like the disjointed nature of it, where you do all the writing work by yourself. And then you hand it in, and suddenly you’re working on it a second time collaboratively with someone who’s editing it and telling you like what to change. And it’s just like you become almost co-dependent in that relationship.
Delia Cai: Yeah, yeah. Or even like, like I went through even a part of that, like around with like my. And then it was so weird cause then it was like, okay, now after the book was sold, I was like, okay, now not like this is done, but like we’re not gonna be chatting every day anymore.
Courtney: Yeah. It’s like you miss them. It’s weird. Yeah. It’s real weird. Everything about the process is strange and unnatural but also gratifying.
Delia Cai: I truly didn’t realize there was gonna be a crazier, weirder industry than like media. And now I was like, oh no, publishing is way crazier. And it’s on like this slow-mo, weird slow-mo roll.
Courtney: And everybody is like, I mean, I’m white, but everybody is really white, and you don’t realize you’re gonna work with someone who is like personifying whatever the lowest common denominator is, and they give you bad advice, and it becomes your job to like push back against it.
Delia Cai: Yeah. I know. I, I, I just really had no idea about anything about the publishing industry. But like to my agent’s credit, Caroline and Jade, to like my editor’s credit, like they were just so fantastic the whole time. I think at one point, we were looking up a cover option, and I was just like, it’s giving a little like Chairman Mao. And they were like, “Got it, no problem. We know exactly what you mean and like, let’s think of something else.” But like it was, it was like funny like I said it as a joke, and they’re like, oh yeah.
Courtney: I did that to my publisher before they started working on a cover. I was like, I have one rule. No pinks. No pink anything. No pink anywhere. Don’t even think about pink. They’re like, okay, well…
Melissa: But how will they know it’s for girls, Courtney?
Courtney: Exactly.
Melissa: Yeah. But have you considered making playlists?
Delia Cai: So, I had to make one for like our book club kit. I just made it on Spotify. So I don’t know if, like, I just never learned how to make a real playlist because I still don’t know what the art is to it other than like, I’m just gonna put some songs that I really like together and maybe like narratively, they seem to flow. And maybe sometimes it’s fast, and sometimes it’s slow. I don’t really know the art to it, even as a 29-year-old, yet. But I’m pretty happy with this, I would say. It’s all the songs from high school.
Courtney: I think the art of it is you feeling happy with it in the end. There are definitely rules you can make up for yourself if you’re a nerd like me, but you don’t have to.
Delia Cai: Thanks.
Melissa: So my last question would be: Where can people find you?
Delia Cai: I am still very much on Twitter, unfortunately. My handle is Delia_Cai. So I’m on Instagram as @DeeeliaCai. There’s like three e’s. Book is out. If you pre-order it through You and Me books, which is this great bookstore in Chinatown, you get a personalized and signed copy. So…
Courtney: Very nice.
Delia Cai: Love stuff like that.
Melissa: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on to talk about songs your ex ruined, and I hope that you can reclaim the song. And it doesn’t make you cry every time you hear it, like on shuffle or in the grocery store.
Courtney: Or if you can’t reclaim it, I hope it invites literary inspiration at some point.
Delia Cai: Yes, thank you. Thank you for this actually very healing walk down memory lane.
