LINKS

First things first: go listen to FOGO: Fear of Going Outside with Ivy Le! It's a great podcast.

If you want a good reason to be afraid of staying inside in Texas, here's a piece Courtney wrote on gun laws in the state (yes, sometimes I write about not music stuff).

And so we don't leave you thinking Texas is totally uncool and terrifying, Courtney also wrote a piece on the iconic Longhorn Ballroom reopening recently. And it's cool as shit.

Melissa is contributing a cake to this Texas-themed episode.

TRANSCRIPT

Melissa: Hello, I'm Melissa Locker. 

Courtney: And I'm Courtney E. Smith 

Melissa: and you are listening to Songs My Ex Ruined, the show where we talk about songs that have been ruined by our exes. Hello and welcome to Songs My Ex Ruined. We are joined today by Ivy Lee, who, much like myself, is an avid indoors man, but she's been challenging to turn herself on FOGO, her fear of going outside podcast to actually leave the great indoors and venture outwards, which I don't totally support, but I love having you do it.

Ivy: I am so happy to be here, indoors, recording a podcast with y'all. 

Melissa: Yeah, we are thrilled to have you stay inside for a while. I mean, if you feel the need to like bolt and like head outside, you let us know.

Ivy: I mean, I guess only if we talk about the ex too much.

Courtney: Understandable, relatable, yes.

Melissa: Yeah, you can just throw yourself outside. Bye! 

Ivy: Give me to the bobcats. I'm done. 

Melissa: Oh boy. Okay, well, dear podcast listeners, if Ivy makes a break for it, we will let you know. 

Ivy: Yeah, the thing that you've been listening to every episode of this show waiting to happen has finally happened.

Courtney: Death by ex? Death by nostalgia? 

Melissa: Aw. Took the wrong exit off of Memory Lane. 

Courtney: Oh, that was beautiful. That was very poetic. 

Ivy: That's why I listen. Is that, is that not why other people are listening? It's also how I watch nature shows, incidentally. ‘Cause, you know, I host a nature show because they love nature shows, not because I love nature. And I'm watching all these nature shows, and I'm just like, “Oh my God, why?” Like, there's a very like train wreck, rubbernecking quality to the way I watch nature shows, you know?

Courtney: Ivy, can I tell you that I foster dogs, and every now and then, I get a dog that watches TV? So, I put on a nature show for them just to see what will happen and like what animals they'll react to the most strongly.

Ivy: Oh my God, what happens? Do they just, they're just like, “Oh my god, that's out there?” 

Courtney: Yeah, like some of the dogs, they'll bark at it, or growl at it, or like try to herd the TV. It's pretty amazing. 

Ivy: It's delightful. 

Courtney: It's so much fun. 

Melissa: Have you guys seen the French bulldog on TikTok who's in love with Henry Cavill? 

Courtney: Yes, oh my gosh. I'm obsessed with the whole saga of this dog.  

Ivy: Tell me.

Melissa: It's literally just like the dog's, you know, owner/human companion was watching The Witcher or something, and she noticed her dog was super paying attention, and so she just started testing it with all different Henry Cavill roles, and the dog is obsessed. And now people started sending like Henry Cavill like cutouts and little pillows, and the dog is just like Henry Cavill obsessed. Which is amazing.

Ivy: I wonder if her dog and Henry Cavill knew each other in a past life. 

Melissa: That seems like the only possible explanation. 

Ivy: Right? 

Courtney: I love that. 

Ivy: And they, they used to fuck, you know?

Courtney: Or they have serious beef, like you never know with a dog, ‘cause it looks like adoration, but they could hate you.

Melissa: Yeah, it's like one time he threw a stick, but he actually pretended to throw the stick.

Courtney: Yeah, and I've carried it with me ever since. 

Melissa: So Ivy, congratulations. This is the longest we have made it into a podcast without asking the guest what song an ex has ruined for them.

Ivy: Oh, is that what we're here to talk about? No, I'm kidding. I can turn anything into a nature show. It's a song by The Killers called “All These Things That I've Done.”

So this was, admittedly, a very good album. And I was dating a boy, which is already - red flag - as I'm a raging bisexual, already a red flag. A cisgender man, just, immediate red flag. But he was super into this album, and he and I had very different taste in music, but I'm, I feel like I'm pretty open-minded with music. I personally kind of live in like rap, hip hop, reggaeton world, you know? But I have so many artistic friends, and they just bring me kind of the best parts of their genres that they're into, and I love to listen to it all, right? But of course, I will listen to mediocre things from the genres that I love because I love the genres so much that I'm like, “Ah, you know, even a mediocre version of the genre that will pass in three minutes, not worth changing the radio for.” You know, back when people listened to radios.

Courtney: Sure, ancient history. 

Ivy: Right? So, people who are really into this Killer's album, it was a big deal album for people who were listening to kind of like rock music at that time, right? And even I could hear like, “Hey, this is a good album.” Like, if there was one album that crossed over to my world. This is a really good candidate for a crossover. And this guy, we were semi-long distance. We lived a couple hours from each other, and so we would see each other on the weekends. And he would play the entire album, like just as soon as he woke up, that was like our morning cooking breakfast music. You know, he really loved that album and he himself could play some musical instruments. Um, and was decent at them. And so I think he admired very much the musicality and he would kind of sing these songs. And this song, at the time, was probably the song I felt was catchiest on the album. I think it was one of the singles that was released from it. So that's not that unusual, right, for them to release the catchiest song? But for me, this is the one that I'm like, ah, you know, this has gotta beat. This is syncopated. You know, like, this is music I could get into. And I think after we broke up and he broke my heart into a million pieces, and then I started to unpack why basically the sounds of like whiny white men just no longer held any interest for me. Then once I heard the song, and I could kind of hear that the parts of this music that were resonating with me were not the parts that are resonating with him. And he identified so much with the lead singer, and I think the way that they sang the song, I was like, “Oh,  this is just a white boy whining and I, I don't wanna hear it anymore.” 

Melissa: So if you're going just cut out all music by whiny white men, that's a lot of rock history just down the tubes. So like, you got no more Black Keys, you got no more, um, Josh Homme anything you got, um… 

Courtney: No more John Mayer, but I'm cool with that.

Melissa: Oh, is he rock? 

Courtney: Well, good question. I mean, he plays guitar like a rock person, but he makes pop music. Like David Bowie is not whiny, but he is white. Is he rock, or is he pop? Some people straddle the line, I think. 

Ivy: I mean, not a whole lot in my life would change without any of these people whose names I barely know.

Courtney: There are some whiny white man bands that I would miss, like R.E.M. Very whiny, very white, but I love them so much. Like if I cut that out, I would be bummed.

Ivy: Is Johnny Cash? Do you feel like he was whiny, or was he just a legit sad boy? 

Courtney: Nah, he’s the Man in Black. Like that's a whole different…that was a different vibe.

Ivy: He's not whiny. He's just conveying his actual lived life to you, you feel like? Okay, yeah, cause I like him. I like his stuff. Pavarotti? Pavarotti definitely not whiny. We could keep- Pavarotti can stay. 

Courtney: Pavarotti can stay. Yeah, I mean, you could take away a lot of these guys and replace them with Leon Bridges or something, and we'd all be better off. Ivy, what do you know about the Killers other than like this song and this music? Do you know anything about where they're from or who they are? 

Ivy: It's been so long. I probably knew a little bit back then, but I don't. Tell me. 

Courtney: So they claim to be from Las Vegas, which is, first of all, sketchy and a huge red flag. Anybody who thinks they're a Vegas native, like huge red flag to me, sorry. But the real thing is there's all this talk about them being Mormons, and that's the thing. Like their lead singer Brandon Flowers is, in fact, a Mormon. I would like to know, he's never commented publicly, but does he wear the magic underwear or not?

Courtney: But there's a lot of like space out there in the world in music journalism given to dissecting their lyrics and trying to pick out like religious undertones in it. And I think it's pretty clear, like with the bombast and everything, there is a lot of religious stuff going on. 

Melissa: Oh, that's why we did “Mr. Brightside” in church.

Courtney: What? Excuse me. Say more?

Melissa: I'm just kidding. Go on. Just looking for the religious undertones here. 

Courtney: But yeah, there's a lot of people that have dissected, is he talking about Jesus when this song? Like how many times does this man reference Jesus? It's a lot. Maybe it's a cult.

Ivy: But then, did they figure out whether or not he wears a magic underwear or no?

Melissa: I know we have questions. 

Courtney: He deflects always about any religious questions in interviews. He's very private about his religion, so no. No one has uncovered what his underwear situation is. 

Ivy: That feels like a yes. That feels like a yes. And actually, that reminds me of a story. The family of this boy that I dated when he was a baby, they were Pentecostal missionaries abroad. So, it was, uh, a like a very religious family, right? I mean, they were taking their family abroad, like in the name of their religion. So they were very serious. But they also portray themselves as, I think, much more chill about religion than they actually were. And I am a deeply curious person. I want to know everything about “Where do you come from, what do you believe? Like what are you allergic to? Are you single? What are you looking for? But are you sure that's what you're looking for, or is that just like a checklist to protect your heart cause you know nobody's gonna meet it?” Like, I get really deep, really fast with people, you know? Cause I'm just a curious person. And so, I remember one time asking his grandma, I had learned that in this particular sect of Protestantism, that they speak in tongues, right? So I was living in Georgia, which is, which speaking in tongues is actually, I think, more common there than it is here, and it's just kind of part of the consciousness. And I, and I kind of put two to two together that like this is one of those sects that does that. And so I asked Grandma about it around the dinner table, and the whole family was around, and everybody just went, “Ha ha, ha ha ha.” And totally did not address the question at all. 

Courtney: Wow, so sketchy. It’s a cult. It’s a cult.

Ivy: And so, to me, the answer is yes. Yes, and they don't wanna go into it. 

Melissa: Why do it if you don't want to tell people about it? Like the whole point of, you know, being Pentecostal is sharing the good word. And if that is the good word, come down to you in the form of speaking in tongues in church, like, share that with everybody. Share that with the, you know, raging bisexual at your dinner table.

Courtney:  I think it's nice that they like, have recognized that this seems a little extreme to people, and they don't want to own it. 

Ivy: Yeah, not every aspect of these religions is about being open and sharing, and I think the Mormon church is a really, like, really good example. I remember my first experience with young Mormon friends who when they were getting married, members of their own families couldn't attend the ceremony because they weren't Mormon, so they couldn't enter into the Mormon- I think they call it a temple? I don't think they call it a church? But basically, whatever the version of a church is. And so then they had to have a reception, kind of like at, at a hotel where it didn't matter what your underwear was or whatever, you know, you could just show up. And this is culturally, I'm Vietnamese, I'm Buddhist. Our weddings are like hundreds of people. Like the bride and groom doesn't know half of the people that are at their weddings a lot of the times. And so to me, I was just like, it's just so upside down. I'm like, “What kind of organization would prevent family members from attending a wedding?” Like, what is the point of a wedding at that point, you know?

Courtney: Totally legit question. Well, that's interesting that there's a religious extremism throughline with the Killers and with this guy, and he maybe he picked up on it subconsciously. Maybe it spoke to him in that way.

Ivy: Maybe. I think they do send each other a lot of subliminal messages through music in that world. 

Courtney: A lot of coded language in lyrics, like seriously. 

Melissa: Yeah, like having grown up in the church, I can tell when I accidentally flip to a Christian radio station in about 1.2 seconds. 

Ivy: Me too!

Melissa:  I'd be like, “That's a Jesus song. Jesus song.” You can tell there is something in it that you're just like, Instantly aware that they're trying to convert you. 

Ivy: Yeah, and you're like, “That's a love song about Jesus. Next.” 

Courtney: So creepy. So I was working at MTV when the Killer's first albums came out. And I got invited by the person at Island Def Jam to go see them, and they were on Island, but I didn't know that at first cause they put out an EP with like no label affiliation on it. They did that on purpose because they wanted to tap into, around that time, I think it was like 2003 or ‘04? There was just a lot going on with indie rock, and they wanted to sort of like make it seem like they weren't on a major label at first and get all the blog love. Which is so shady, so, so shady. And then it comes out, and it's like got the major push and is on the radio and, you know, has tons of money behind it, and you're just like, “Oh, this band. Hmm…crafty.”

Ivy: That is sketchy. I do remember them having that indie vibe, actually. 

Melissa: It was all a lie. 

Courtney: It was very cultivated. Tell us about what happened with this song? So, it sounds like, thematically, the way that this went is it got ruined by overexposure? 

Ivy: It's a, it's not over- It's just when, uh, when before it was just a bop. And then, I think after we broke up, I just started to unpack. Have you ever dated people where you realize like they didn't really want to be your partner? I think bisexual women have this issue too, or like, “Do I like her like her, or do I just want to be her?” And I definitely had dated guys where like didn't really want to be with me. They just wanted something that I had in myself for themselves. And something that I thought that, you know, I feel like I'm a clever girl. I grew up really scrappy. As the daughter of immigrants, I've had the great privilege to travel the world and have a lot of different careers and satiate my curiosity most of the time when my curiosity sometimes feels utterly insatiable. But if a man wants, you know, power and wealth, like those are very like, I mean, a lot of people want power and wealth, you know. Like those are very normal run-of-the-mill human, like, and I'm totally not judging it as moral or good or bad or anything. Those are just like really normal things that people want. So, much so that we have cautionary tales about, you know, not wanting it too much because of bad things will happen to you or whatever. So, I thought that him and guys like him who were like ambitious and hardworking and, you know, from good families, like wanted power and wealth. And I'm like, “Well, if that's what you want, then we can be partners and we can try to build that life for ourselves and I will be a good and dedicated partner in that, right?” But I think what this person wanted was just for powerful and wealthy people to like them. And powerful and wealthy people did like me - I'm well-traveled. I speak four languages. I know a lot about art history, like visual art, history, sculpture and architecture and design and things like that. ‘Cause, like, growing up, I couldn't afford to do like sports or whatever, but at least in AP Art you could kind of make things from found materials, you know? And I was very resourceful in that way. And so I knew a lot about art. You know, I'm not ashamed of where I come from. I don't hide it very much, but I'm funny. I'm well traveled, I'm educated, you know, I'm a big comedian. I'm a professional comedian. I wasn't a comedian back then, but kind of the quality of being a comedian is just kind of innate, I think to a lot of comedians. And so powerful and wealthy people enjoyed my presence and would listen to kind of my ideas about politics, even when they disagreed with me, would still kind of like hear me out. And I think he wanted that for himself, but he did not really want like a wild, artistic, you know, loud Texas girl whose parents are from Vietnam who puts hot sauce and fish sauce and everything. You know, like I'm a lot. And I don't think he really wanted that. And for me to want power and wealth is like one thing, but to just want to be liked by powerful and wealthy people is- obviously, I can't relate to that. I don't, I don't really care, right? If you care too much, then you can't speak truth to power. And that's something I cared about a lot and still do. I still do.

Courtney: That’s so interesting because it also, like, I feel like I'm setting up a psychological profile of this person, but it really speaks to this sort of earnestness of the Killers, that it sounds like is another throughline of something that really spoke to this guy. Like it might be why he liked them, because the sort of like, desire to be liked and to contort yourself into different types of personalities or situations in order to be liked like that speaks to that same sort of, you know, “I'm putting myself out there, just love me!” Kind of thing that Brandon Flowers does.

Ivy: Just love me!

Courtney: That should be a Killer's lyric, please just love me.

Ivy: Is that what their whole thing is? Is that what their whole album was? Because I haven't listened to the whole album, I think, since this mid-early twenties, like stage of my life, and I picked a song because it is just kind of, I think the biggest single, so it's the most likely song to just randomly come on in a restaurant or something like that. But I'm sure I could find like a more annoying song in retrospect if I had it in me to listen to the whole album. But is the whole album just kind of like that? Like, please like me? 

Courtney: That is the most annoying song on the album, first of all. It's also the most popular and most catchy, but it is also the most annoying. So Melissa and I come from this world of indie rock people and like the snobbishness of it and the clique-iness of it.

Melissa: I don't know what you're talking about.

Courtney: Yes, you do. And you're like at the center of it, and so am I, and we're terrible people. So, but the fences that world builds around itself, and those are replicated in other genres of music too, that's just one we're familiar with. There's a reason that those people make music to be played in small rooms, and people like Coldplay or the Killer or the Red Hot Chili Peppers…. 

Melissa: Oh, I recently learned who Muse is.

Courtney: Oh yeah, Muse are art rock nerds who make this kind of music. They're a little weirder, but it's definitely a certain type of person that wants music to be played in sports stadiums. And like if you read David Byrne’s book How Music Works, he talks about like the difference in composing that kind of music and the kind of music that has to reach to, like, the outer rafters of a sports arena, which is not a place made to have music played in it. The music reverberates and comes back, and there has to be a certain kind of sound to it. There are certain limitations to writing that kind of music. And lyrically, it has to, you know, resonate with such a huge base of people to be able to make you a band that tours and plays stadiums. 

Ivy: That's so interesting cause you know, comedians, we think about that too. That there are also kind of certain fences around certain parts of comedy by cer- I guess I never thought about them as fences, but I would call them gatekeepers. So, I mean, yeah, I guess the metaphor is still fences. And that there are definitely comics who write material for smaller spaces or for theater spaces rather than traditional comedy clubs. And obviously some world famous, like Kevin Hart is obviously a stadium performer, you know, and they necessarily have to write and perform their material differently and so interesting. 

Courtney: Yeah, I mean, and that's a part of why comedy and indie rock have gone together so well. Like all the sort of David Crosses that decided they hated playing comedy clubs and went on tour with indie rock bands in the 2000s, which started a thing.

Ivy: I didn't know that, but I love that. I also want music and comedy to be closer together. Abroad, at a lot of these comedy festivals, musicians and comedians are kind of playing back to back at the same, uh, like they're calling it a comedy festival, but there's just bands all over the place. And I'm like, God, I, we need that energy here. I live in Austin, Texas, like supposedly the live music capital of the world and our music and our comedy scene are, are really not amplifying each other like that at all. 

Melissa: So if the Killers ask you to open for them on tour, what do you say?

Courtney: What's your answer? 

 Ivy: I'd be like, darling, I don't think your demographic is my demographic.

Melissa: They wanna branch out. 

Courtney: Well, I don't know. Your ex says otherwise. Like there's a certain part of their demographic that might be really like vibing with you. Whether you are vibing with them is a different question.  

Ivy: I'll be real with y'all. You know, my demographic is hot bitches. If I am in a lineup, uh, of comics at a traditional comedy club and there is just tables of hot bitches, cause they'll be individual hot baes on a date or something, you know? But if there's like tables of them, they're there to see me. They're not there to see the other comics, do you know what I mean? Like that is legitimately my demographic and I just don't think that's what the Killers are pulling. 

Courtney: No, that's fair. That's fair. 

Ivy: I think the Killers are pulling guys that I only would've dated before my brain fully developed.

Courtney: That is accurate. Yes, great assessment. Brutal burn, but accurate. 

Melissa: So I have a Killer's related story, which actually ties into my fear of going outside, which is something I can be able to relate to. Which is that one time, I was on a hiking trip, which is not my normal thing, but I did grow up in Oregon, and they forced us to do these things on occasion, did not totally have a choice in these matters. It's like you're surrounded by woods, so eventually, you have to venture forth into them. Also, there's this thing called outdoor school where they sent every sixth grader into the woods for an entire week. And you just learn how to like not die. 

Ivy: What? What? 

Melissa: It's a whole thing out here. So, anyway, one time, I was in the great outdoors, and we were told that there were bears. And if there are bears around, you have to try and alert them to your presence in the hopes that they will run the opposite direction. And that they don't actually wanna eat you and would like to stay far, far away from you. Which you could probably make some sort of relationship to the dating scene and that. But anyway, so the best way to do this is to make a lot of noise. So, someone had the great idea to turn on their little, I guess this is their phone, and just start blasting. But for some reason, the only album they had on their phone, and like this was like very early on in the phone world, but the only album they had was the Killers, and they were just playing “Mr. Brightside” at full volume to scare off bears. 

Courtney:  That would scare off anyone.  

Melissa: We did not see any bears, so lemme tell you, the Killers are excellent bear deterrents. 

Ivy: It works. It works. 

Courtney: Wow. 

Melissa: 100% 

Courtney: The payoff on that, A+. Like wow.

Melissa: So, you know, the next time you want to, you know, go outside, just feel free to borrow that little, you know, nugget. Take it. Blast the Killers.  

Ivy: I can't. Bears is gonna have to take me cause I'm not playing this album no more. No ma'am. I'm done. 

Melissa: Eh, what a way to go. 

Courtney: Let's, let's dig into that. Tell us more about your, it sounds like you really hate this album now. Like how did the worm turn on this one for you? 

Ivy: So, I went back cause I'm like, you know, it's been so long, and it was a very critically acclaimed album. Maybe if I play it again, I'll just like kind of hear it fresh. But it's just still like that voice of a whiny white man, and I'm like, “Why are you whining?” So if anything, I think in light of the, like, the last six years of my country, that I think it's even worse. I think the time is even worse for me to revisit this music, you know?  

Courtney: That's fair. I mean, I don't recommend it or anything, but… 

Ivy: Yeah, and bears are having a moment. Have you heard of Cocaine Bear?

Courtney: Yes. 

Melissa: I don't know if cocaine bears, I mean, in truth, I do not know if cocaine bears will be repelled by The Killers. 

Courtney: I feel like they might run towards the Killers, if I'm being honest. 

Melissa: Yeah, they're like, partay! Let's throw down.

Courtney: Party, yeah. I understand you also have an episode of the podcast in your current season where you learned how to camp and how to prepare your own food in the wild? 

Ivy: So season one was about figuring out how to go camping, and I literally did do it. I actually went camping. And that's episode 10 of season one. That's the season finale. 

Courtney: With a chef, right? 

Ivy: Oh, no. This season I do talk to a couple chefs because, um, in season two I'm trying to figure out how to go hunting from like nothing except the fact that I've been camping one time, right? But I'm like, “Oh, camping wasn't as dangerous as I thought it was gonna be. So like, how hard could hunting be?”

Courtney: What are you hunting with? Is question number one. 

Ivy: That was also my question number one, you know trying to get a gun. In episode one, I know it sounds wild, but when you listen to it, it happens really organically. I end up on a Second Amendment conservative talk radio show trying to convince one of these guys to lend me their gun. And that's just episode one, right? It actually gets much, much more unpredictable, like episode by episode. No one knew what a circus trying to figure out how to go hunting was gonna be, and I certainly didn't know. ‘Cause I, I don't know enough about the outdoors to kind of get the nuance between different levels of outdoorsiness, right? So to me, hunting and camping and dog sledding, I guess? I can't think of a whole lot of outdoors things off the top of my head cause it's, it's not my world. But to me there, I, I kind of paint them all with one broad stroke because of my own ignorance. And, and I kind of put them all in one bucket, which I call white nonsense. Turns out y'all need a lot of buckets and hunting and camping are, are actually not in the same one. But by the time I figured it out, it was just too late to turn back. 

Courtney: Okay, I'm gonna tell you a white nonsense story now. 

Ivy: Please. 

Courtney: It starts with one of my cousins, one who's the same age as me, got married when we were in our mid twenties. That was his first marriage. That is over now. But I met this girl at their wedding, and so I obviously asked her, “So how did you guys meet? Like, what's your meet cute story?” And she's like, “Oh, I do accounting with my aunt's firm and, um, we were working with his business on some projects and we started emailing and just corresponding. And it was really nice, but I really fell for him when he sent me a picture of himself with this 10 point buck that he'd killed.”

Melissa: Oh, man. 

Ivy: So your cousin is a reason why all these guys are posting their pictures with fish on their dating profiles? 

Courtney: I mean, he's definitely an early adapter, yeah. Is there, Ivy, a soundtrack to your camping and hunting adventures?

Ivy: Actually, there is, but it's, it's original music by the composer Michelangelo Rodriguez, who, he lives in LA. He makes scores for like, movies and commercials and TV shows and things like that. But he's from Austin. His mom lives just a few minutes from my place, just a couple minutes down the road. So, um, we were so thrilled to have somebody who was local to just give the show just a very Texas sound. I have a very Texas sound and I just didn't want my podcast to sound like two white dudes in Brooklyn made it to impress their friends or something, you know what I mean? Like, I, I wanted it to sound like what, being in Texas like really sounds like. And, and he, he, Michelangelo did an incredible job. You can, I'm like in his like 99th percentile of listeners on Spotify, cause I listen to his soundtracks to write all the time. He's so talented and he loves scoring for comedy because he says that when you, when you score things for comedy, the, the people who make the movie don't force you to stay in one genre. It could be multiple genres that you have to score in like one thing, right? And totally, it's true. In this season, he has to score some techno, some jazz. He has to score all kinds of stuff. Obviously, because it's hunting, some thriller music, you know, some suspenseful thriller music. He composes all kinds of things, and I really do listen to his themes sometimes when I'm just like bored walking around trying to figure out what's right next. or like what to observe when I'm feeling overwhelmed in the outdoors. Yeah, I, I really do. 

Courtney: Oh, that's so cool. I love that. 

Melissa: Yeah, well, on that note, thank you so much for joining our show and FOGO season two is out now?

Ivy: Yeah, FOGO season two has already started dropping new episodes every Monday morning, ready for your commute. Bring a little bit of that outdoors into your indoor space. And yeah, and I, I hope y'all stick around and listen to the finale, and find out if I make it hunting or die trying. 

Courtney: I've gotta go now and subscribe immediately, obviously. 

Ivy: Yeah, you can listen to it wherever you get podcasts, but it, it does help me a little bit more if you listen to it on Spotify so they can see that, you know, people are listening to this show. 

Courtney: Noted, done. 

Melissa: Done. Well, thank you so much. We've really enjoyed having you and good luck in the great outdoors.

Ivy: I really enjoyed this walk memory lane with you guys.