LINKS

Pre-order Jane Marie's book, Selling the Dream.

And listen to her podcast, The Dream.

TRANSCRIPT

Melissa: Hello, I'm Melissa Locker. 

Courtney: And I'm Courtney E. Smith. 

Melissa: And you are listening to Songs My Ex Ruined, the show where we talk about songs that have been ruined by our exes. 

Courtney: This week, we welcome Jane Marie. She is another amazing podcaster. Her podcast is called The Dream. And she's also an author. Congratulations, Jane. 

Jane: Thank you. 

Courtney:  Her book, Selling the Dream, is coming out this March. So, The Dream looks into MLMs, scams — you know, those people that we love to gossip about who are people we don't know. And this book is a deeper exploration of the characters that are profiled in season one of her podcast. So, Jane gets into like this great historical primer on all these people that started MLMs, and she's going to tell us more about that in a little bit. But Jane, as you know, we do not mess around on this podcast. We cut right to the chase. So, please start off with telling us about a song that an ex ruined for you?

Jane: Okay, I don't know if you ever heard anything like this story before, so hold on to your butts. 

Melissa/Courtney: Oh. Oh. Uh oh. 

Melissa: I’m holding on so tight. 

Jane: Can I give you the whole story? 

Melissa: Please. Start at the very beginning. We're all ears. 

Courtney: Leave nothing out. 

Jane: Okay, great. So I'll say somehow, pathologically, I have only been in a serious relationship with a non working musician once.

Courtney: Oh boy. 

Jane: Everyone else I've dated has been a busy, working, publishing musician. So, it really depends on what year you ask me. I'll come back in a couple years and I'll have a new story for you. But this one, this story is actually about Dan, who is my co host on The Dream. 

Melissa: Oh wow. 

Jane: And he’s featured in the first couple of seasons. Yeah, he's in this season too, but less because we broke up.

Melissa: Yeah, that was a dramatic reveal for listeners. 

Jane: Yeah, it's really heartbreaking. We love each other very much, but it's just not going to work. So Dan, when I met Dan, I met him at a public radio event. It was like a little dinner that was ahead of a John Hodgman show here in L. A., and he didn't have anywhere to sit except for the only seat available — next to me. And we kind of hit it off, and then I asked him on a date. And he said sure, and I didn't know anything about this guy. But then I googled him before the date, and I found out he's like a famous musician in a band that I had barely heard of. This band became popular in the early 2000s, when I was married to a rap producer and I was not listening to anything but that really. And, it also isn't my flavor of music to begin with but I thought it was an emo band because of the name. Apparently it's not, even though I've heard the music now and I wouldn't be able to tell you if it was or wasn't, but it's Modest Mouse. 

Courtney:  Oh! 

Jane: The band is Modest Mouse. And their hit single, which I probably had heard but didn't know what it was called, is called “Float On.”

Melissa: How would you not heard “Float On”?

Courtney: Yeah, how is that even possible? 

Jane:.Wwell, here's what it is — and this is why it's a problem now, why it's like, quote unquote, ruined for me — is it's like elevator music, it's in the grocery store. I hear it everywhere now, so I'm sure I passively heard it before that, because it's always been — in airports, everywhere. It's everywhere. 

Melissa: Yeah, no. It is like we are the age now where suddenly the music from, like, the early 2000s is the grocery store music. It is the elevator music. It's like, “Oh, we’re that age now.”

Jane: It's on the pop station on the radio and the oldies station.

Courtney: And the oldies station, it's so insulting.

Jane: It's everywhere.

Courtney: I get more insulted when stuff that played that was cool when I was young, and Modest Mouse were very cool when I was young, in my 20s young, gets played in a grocery store though. That is the most insulting thing in the world to me. I'm just like, ugh. 

Melissa: Oh, see, I think it's hilarious. I'll just be like, yes, they're trying to sell me cereal, finally.

Jane: I feel bad because I like the guys in the band, and of course I love Dan and I don't want to reduce his greatest hit to It's grocery store music, but that's the problem with hits, right? If you write a really big hit, it's just everywhere, all the time, forever. So it's on commercials, it's in movies, I cannot get away from that song. I didn't have any emotions about this song before six years ago. I never even really listened to the lyrics or anything like that. So, now this song that's everywhere is like stabbing me in the heart. You know, in the middle of the grocery store, I'll start crying. It sucks. It sucks. 

Melissa: Oh, I'm so sorry.

Jane: It's okay. It's just, yeah. I don't know if you've heard a story like that, but… 

Melissa: No, but I mean, not quite like that, but I mean, I think this song and like songs from that era are definitely part of the reason we created this podcast. Because there are so many times that you're in the grocery store and suddenly you're crying in the yogurt aisle and you're like, goddamn it. I did not want to be here. I'm obnoxious though because if I hear a friend’s song in the grocery store, I will just text them. I immediately be like, oh my god, you've made it you're playing… 

Jane: You’re at Trader Joe's!

Melissa: You made Trader Joe's man!

Jane: It's sweet though also because my daughter's also a musician, she's a guitarist and singer/songwriter already. And she loves the song. And so I'm havinge an opposite reaction to her when we hear it somewhere. She's always like, “It's Dandan's song! Yay!” You know, like so excited. And I'm like, “I know. I know it is. It is. Okay, just clench your teeth.”

Courtney: It's become the gym for me. My gym locker room. It's not the whole gym, it's the locker room specifically. Somebody has set it on cool hits of the 90s, 2000s, and 2010s. MGMT is on all the time, the Strokes, the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, and I'm just like, this locker room right now is filled with a lot of older Asian ladies. I don't think they are vibing this in the same way as I am.

Melissa: I was at a Duane Reade the other day and whoever had picked the soundtrack was clearly just rocking out. Like it was kind of the end of the night and the whole soundtrack was hilarious, but it was so good that I didn't really want to leave the store, which I think is sort of the point, right? Because they were doing LCD Soundsystem, and then they followed it with some LL Cool J song, and something by Limp Bizit. I don't know. The whole thing was just like hilarious and random and weird and I was just cracking up like while I was trying to, you know, buy milk or something. I was like, I love this. I don't know who chose this, but they're nuts. 

Jane: It reminds me of in the early 90s, we would hang out at a couple diners in town, but one of them was like a Big Boy, you know? Like a Denny's sort of thing. 

Melissa: Bob's Big Boy. 

Jane:  They had a corporate, VHS, it looked like a VHS tape, but it was just for the music. And they would put one out like every quarter. And so it was like the same 15 songs on loop. And if you were a teenager sitting there smoking for four hours, we like memorized the playlist from inside the Big Boys. And it would be like a very thrilling day when they got a new tape, you know? We noticed music changed, and we were like wow!

Melissa: So wait, what were some of the songs? Do you remember? 

Jane: Oh, I remember then, because it was early 90s. I don't remember specifically the songs, but that was real oldies. Like, from the 60s oldies. 

Melissa: Oh like, “Help Me Rhonda”?

Jane: Like Beach Boys and, yeah, that kind of stuff. And it was always a variation on that but you'd totally notice it when the music changed because it had been drilled into your head for four or five months, you know?

Melissa: Yeah. So when you heard those songs.

Jane: I always wondered, like, who's making this? Is this a job that I can get when I'm older? Like, kind of did get a job like that. 

Courtney: It, in fact, is. Yeah,my friend Sarah does all the music for Aritiza and it's ridiculous. Like she's constantly just like, “My whole job is making mixtapes for every clothing store that we own in the country.”

Jane: I love it.

Courtney: Just like, that is a great job. That is a very specific job.

Jane: Yeah, I did music supervision at TAL and a couple other places. It's fun. 

Melissa: Yeah. Do you ever, when you're doing music supervision at This American Life or other projects, I is, do you ever worry like, Oh, I hope this song doesn't trigger anybody? I just feel some of the songs, I don't know. Like, when you start thinking about people's emotional attachment to songs…

Jane: No, that is, that's like when I'm thinking about music — yeah. Driveway moments, as they say at NPR. I either want them to not notice the music — this is going to be really inside baseball, but, so there's a type of song that is, we called it, like, move it along music. You would never even pay attention to the song, but it's driving the narrative forward in the story. And that's, like 70 percent of the music that we would use on the radio. It still has a tone to it, you know, it's still either a little dark or a little bright or funny but it's not the standout piece. And then there's other types of music where you're punctuating something with an emotion, or foreshadowing with the music. So, those songs, I definitely want to trigger people with those songs. I want them to feel what I'm hoping they feel. Oftentimes I don't put any music in during those moments when people are talking, but sometimes the person is maybe not the very best storyteller, or, you know, something comes out too quickly and you need to slow it down with music. So, I definitely want people to have a bad or a good, or whatever, a scared reaction to those. But you know what? I also dated a guy that I used all of his music on the show.

 Melissa: Oh really? 

Jane: Yeah, and now his music's all over NPR and I'm like, “ugh, this sucks” when it comes on, but I mean good for him. I'm glad he's still getting paid, but…

Melissa: So wait, did you ruin the song for yourself then? 

Jane: Yes, I liked this guy's music, contacted his label and his manager, licensed a bunch of songs, and then I fell in love with him, and then I moved to Canada to be with him, and then I moved back because we broke up, and then I was stuck with all these songs in all of my work. 

Melissa: Oh man. 

Jane: Yeah, I'm gonna not do that going forward. That's my next project for myself. 

Melissa: Yeah, only work with musicians you dislike. 

Jane: I thought I was on some improvement track when I met a comedian and got married and had a baby. Nope. Whoopsie daisy. 

Courtney: Comedians and musicians: way too close.

Jane: Well, now I know. I have to experience things for myself, you know? 

Courtney: I have one question and one story here. My question is going back to “Float On.” So, our friend who was on the podcast recently, Niko Strauss, has started her own podcast called Blue Eyes Crying in the Chip Aisle, which is about people crying when they hear songs in public places. And I am wondering, does that happen to you with “Float On,” or is it more of an eye roll or a deep sigh scenario?

Jane: Oh, I mean, it varies but I've definitely teared up. It almost feels like seeing that person, walking down the aisle toward you in the chip aisle, for me anyway. and I can hear his voice in it, and I can hear him playing the guitar. Like specifically him, you know? And this whole picture comes up in my head of him and how — oh god, I'm gonna get choked up right now. It’s okay. And how this song that I would have never heard really or cared about in the beginning of her relationship became like so romanticized, you know? Because he wrote it. And he was so young when he wrote it, too and I feel like, I don't know I just have this picture of him from way before I met him of like this creative genius kid working so hard in touring bands for so many years and then he gets to like go to the Grammys. And it makes me really proud of him. But yeah, obviously it brings up a lot of emotions. The song that like — I wish I didn't even know that song. I don't really like it. You know what I mean? It's not my music. It’s infuriating.

Courtney: It was a life changing song, though, for that band. That was a total game changer for them. 

Jane: I wasn't aware of that, and now, I mean, like, the first friend that I told what band he was in, she's a little bit younger than me, somebody I worked with at Jezebel, she like fell out of her chair, and I was like, I had no idea that they were that popular, or that song was that big. I just,  I wasn't aware. Somehow I put the blinders on. But you know, we all miss big pop culture moments from time to time.

Courtney: This was the era when I was working at MTV, and I remember when they brought that video in, and I was beyond surprised because Epic was going to actually work Modest Mouse. They'd been on the label for a while and I was just like, are you kidding me? They're making a video for this band? And what is going on here? And they got like, I believe it was Matthew Mills, who was one of the hottest at the time for indie bands. And they got everything right about the signifiers and they were fully committing to working this band at proper radio. Modest Mouse! It was stunning. 

Jane: See, I don't even know what you're talking about  when you say Modest — it's like, that's how not aware. Like, they sound to me like pop music. 

Courtney: They didn't before this album. 

Jane: Oh, okay. Okay.

Melissa: Yeah, I mean, cause I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, and I grew up as a music journalist covering all the local bands. Modest Mouse was real small. And then suddenly... I still don't really understand.

 Courtney: They were every musician's favorite band. 

Melissa: Yeah and I never really understood where the hell they came from with “Float On” because not to be the cliche but we'd go see them at teeny tiny clubs opening for other bigger bands and then suddenly “Float On” happened and you're like what the hell. I actually just saw Modest Mouse a few weeks ago and opening with the Pixies There were so many people there and that was probably a smaller venue for them.

Jane: And I'd imagine Modest Mouse is bigger than the Pixies now, for the young audience that would be there. 

Melissa: The Pixies were opening for them.

Jane: Oh my God. I wasn't there. Dann was there. I talked to him afterwards, and he was like, it was really sweet to see everybody. That's crazy, first of all. Again, to my mind, that's absolutely crazy.

Melissa: No, I mean, to my mind, too. I was just like, maybe they alternate headliners, because I could not understand. “Float On” for me, it's pretty anodyne. For me It's like their earlier work that I will actually like tear up while I'm driving around just because it's like emotional but also just reminds me of… 

Jane: …a time? 

Melissa: Being younger and yeah, a different time and I don't know. I put on “Dramamine” and I'm just dead.

Courtney: Here's my other question for the two of you to ponder. So, we're talking about how you do music supervision and wanting people to feel things in the way that we move dialogue or storytelling forward with music. There are people, there are services that program and select these songs that play in grocery stores. What are they trying to tell us? I really do listen and I do hear it when a song that I know comes up in a grocery store, but what am I supposed to be feeling? What are we getting out of here? 

Jane:  I was just watching a TikTok video, because that's all I do anymore with my life. This woman was breaking down — it's a two parter. You know what's fun about TikTok, too, is you're like watching young people discover something that like we all know. 

Courtney:  That girl with the TikTok about discovering Lilith Fair? 

Jane: Yeah, all that stuff, yeah. But it's adorable, it's like watching someone read your favorite book for the first time, you know. And this girl was describing how grocery stores are intentionally laid out to make you spend a lot of time there and extra money and all this, and we're like, no doy. And she's like, can you believe that they put the bread and the milk really far away from each other? And I'm like, everybody knows that. Then she did a second one about Trader Joe's and it was kind of similar.

Melissa: Oh, I actually just got that one this morning.

Jane: I was watching it this morning. And it makes me think that maybe the music programmers are just part of, I'm sure there's some marketing data out there — because when you're looking for music on a music library online, you can sort by mood, you can sort by beats per minute, you can really narrow stuff down to a specific flavor of music. And I imagine that there is a BPM that matches the pace at which they want people shopping in their store. So, you whittle it down by that. And then I imagine there's also genres that are, like you said, anodyne enough to, you know, not take people out of the shopping experience but also kind of lull them to sleep at the same time — get you to stop thinking critically. So, I don't know what that sweet spot is, because that's just not my, my area of musical expertise, but I imagine that there is some data out there that says, okay, you want like 98 beats a minute. You want the lyrics, no swears, you know, no screaming, no rap, you know, and it has to be something that was produced after such and such year because it needs to be recognizable but not distracting. So that's probably what's going on there. Which makes me so sad. 

Courtney: That just means basically Indie Rock has become adult contemporary. 

Jane: That's right. It has, or was it always? 

Courtney:  I mean, no, because at the time, no, I will write you a paper about why, no, it was not always. There are a lot of cultural signifiers involved in this, blah, blah, blah, et cetera, so forth. You can read my dissertation on the matter at bite me dot com.

Jane: And I, my rebuttal is, no. 

Courtney: Your rebuttal is going to be just pressing play on like Sisqo's the “Thong Song.” 

Jane: Yeah. Remember Reality Bites? 

Courtney: Yes, I actually just was on a podcast about Reality Bites and the soundtrack for that for that movie. So I remember it very well. And yes, there are a lot of weird song choices made in that movie. Like explain to me why U2 is in that? Okay, anyway.

Jane: What was that other one that was really good? Singles. Singles, is that the one? It was a great soundtrack. 

Melissa: It had Paul Westerberg. 

Jane: It had Alice in Chains. It was like a weird mishmash. 

Melissa: But I have to say, coming from the Pacific Northwest, that was a very weird Seattle sound. Like it was just like someone in a studio very far away was like, this is the Seattle sound. And everyone in Seattle was like, “Are you sure?” 

Courtney: His name is Cameron Crowe and he did that a lot. 

Melissa: I know you're just like, but sir, no one's ever seen Alice in Chains in concert. What are you talking about? 

Jane: I did. Ha, ake that. 

Melissa: Did you really?

Jane: Yeah, I did. So my dad, my dad's very young, first of all. My parents had me when they were children. And he was like an early adopter of like all the best music. So, I grew up going to rap shows like when I was like seven, but he took me to a bunch of Lollapaloozas like the first four. And I got to sit on his shoulders and… 

Courtney: The second one is the one I wish I’d been at. 

Jane: It was great. Except a tornado came through in Michigan during that one, during Dinosaur Jr. 's set. 

Courtney: That's appropriate, actually. That feels right. 

Jane: And we all had to take cover. But that one was great. It was Rage Against the Machine, Tool, Dinosaur Jr., Alice in Chains, I don't remember who else. Those were the standouts for me that year. 

Courtney: I finally went to, I think it was the sixth Lollapalooza. And Metallica and Soundgarden were co-headlining and I was clearly there for Soundgarden and not Metallica. And at one point I looked around and I was just like, we need to leave now. This is terrifying.

Jane: This is no longer my people. We also went to one in Toronto because a colleague of my dad's brother was playing. And  can I tell this story? Well, you guys decide, it's your show. We got there and somehow through the relationship of this brother and other people, someone at the concert. And we spent like an hour trying, my dad was like fake trying to get Vicodin for Courtney Love. He knew he couldn't because it was a different country, but he got us like backstage passes and like he wheedled his way through the situation and tried to get us perks. So, that was fun.

Melissa: I wasn’t sure if you meant Percocet or perks, like…

Jane: No, perks, like the backstage passes. But she would have taken Percocet for sure, I'm sure, if he would have been able to get any of that, yeah. So, he was calling pharmacies and they're like, “You don't have a license here.” 

Courtney: Kids, this is the best advice that you'll ever get in your life. If the scenario ever arises where Courtney Love wants your phone number, don't give it to her. Give her a fake number. 

Jane: Give her a fake number. 

Courtney: Just trust. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna explain why, just believe me and never do it.

Melissa: I don't know. I feel like she could call you someday and just like yell at you and just be sort of life affirming. 

Courtney: She wouldn't yell at you in a life affirming way, Melissa. That's not what would happen. She would yell at you.

Melissa: Oh no, I just meant more, if you're sadistic, it's life affirming. But did you guys ever read the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?

Jane/Courtney: Yes. 

Melissa: So, there's this one point where there's that immortal alien who just goes around spending his eternal life telling one person at a time that he hates them. I feel like Courtney Love could be like that. She could just get everyone's phone number. 

Jane: She doesn't seem to die. 

Courtney: She doesn't seem to die. 

Jane: She doesn't. There's some people that are just like that, built to last.

Courtney: So, let's turn now to The Dream, Jane. 

Jane: Oh, why? We're having so much fun at Lollapalooza talk. 

Courtney: Well, that was the dream. Now let's turn to a different dream. The dream of the ‘90s is no longer alive. 

Melissa: Except in Portland. 

Courtney: For our listeners who maybe haven't tuned in, can you give them an idea of what you've covered on this podcast and maybe some of the stories that have surprised you?

Jane: Yeah, so, actually, in the making of this show, we knew we wanted to do this season on the MLMs, but, which are multi level marketing, like your LulaRoes and Avons and those kinds of companies where your grandma or your cousin asks you to sign up and sell on their team.

Courtney: Quick question, is Merle Norman an MLM? Or is it legit? 

Melissa: No, I think that's just a real store. 

Jane: Merle Norman's real. And I have the best eyeliner brush from Merle Norman from 25 years ago that I'll never get rid of. 

Melissa: I got my ears pierced at a Merle Norman at a mall in Oregon as a child. 

Jane: Sweet. Oh, sweet. So we did the multi level marketing season and then we had a big list of other things we wanted to tackle. And kind of over the seasons the show has, just by virtue of what we've chosen to cover, has kind of taken more of a shape of like what is this show about. And on a big scale, like it's about huge kind of institutional scams that are legal and that people love in America. And it's about why we just love a get rich quick scheme or get skinny quick scheme or get pretty quick scheme. Or any of those. And meanwhile knowing if we think about something one step further that this is all, you know, bullshit. So the second season we looked at the rise of wellness culture and both kind of poking at places like Goop and people like Gwyneth Paltrow, who are not medical professionals but sell quote unquote medicines and healing crystals and all of that. But also we looked at, you know, how it could be legal that you can, you know, claim that your vitamin prevents COVID. Well, it's not, but… 

Courtney: There's not a lot of FDA regulation? 

Jane: Yeah, there is not. Well, I think people don't understand that. This is one of the most surprising things If I'm to pick one, one of the most surprising things we found in our reporting is that the FDA does make requirements for what you can say on the bottle or the box of whatever supplement or vitamin you're selling. But they don't test any products or approve any products. You just have to send them like a letter when you create something, telling them what's in it. And then they put it on file. And then enough people die or get sick, the FDA and or the FTC will swoop in and then take a closer look and study the thing. So, it follows that out of the millions of supplements out there, they're probably mostly placebos. You know, they're not hurting anyone, but they're not necessarily doing anything. And there are so few that you really need to sustain life. I think there's like 13 vitamins that we need and most of them we can get from food or the sun. So, you know, all this other stuff is like kind of take it if you feel like taking it, but who knows what it does. And, we find out when it's too late that it's bad for you. And vitamin C doesn't do anything. Go ahead. 

Melissa: Oh, I was just gonna say, I was reading something about, they did a big test of  tons of different melatonin supplements and even ones in the same bottle, even ones like across different brands, everything. And none of them had the amount of melatonin actually said on the label. Or almost none of them. And you're just like, oh, that's nice. Glad someone's taking care of this. 

Courtney: Super helpful. 

Jane: I looked at like prenatal vitamins or like women's vitamins when we were doing our research and there is no standard for what that means.The amounts are all over the place, in these multivitamins, the stuff that certain companies choose to include and others don't, and depending on the formulation, you can't have this in there but you can still just call it a prenatal vitamin, even though I think you can't put zinc in a gummy, like it doesn't work or something. And so there's discrepancies like that just kind of make me question the whole market. 

Melissa: Yeah, well it's also like, I was in the UK and I wanted to get some melatonin to go to sleep at night to work on my jet lag. And they're like, oh no, that's completely illegal here. 

Jane: Really?

Melissa: Yeah, and I was like, oh my God. So like, you have to have like a prescription, like it's this whole thing. And I was like, okay, so what's happening with the melatonin in the U. S.? But yeah, it makes me really suspicious. 

Courtney:  It's a wild west? I've gotten served TikTok videos about magnesium and also read articles about it because there are so many different types of it. And it's like you take this for this and this for this and this for this, and I was just like how am I supposed to know which one that I need? I don't, like, what? How do I even navigate one vitamin? 

Jane: I only heard about magnesium with my perimenopause treatment. That there's a glycinate or hyaluronate or the two, I don't know. I just do what my doctor says.

Melissa: Yeah. I have a friend who's a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine and I just listen to what she says because I figure they're probably doing something right. They've been around a really, really long time. 

Jane: Pick one and then just follow the rules, you know? Pick one that you trust and just do what they say and then you're kind of off the hook. I love thinking about what is illegal and legal in different countries too. I never leave Mexico without a bottle of amoxicillin and some Retin A. They sell it at the airport in Cancun? Yes! There's a kiosk, at least in the Delta terminal, at the Cancun airport that's just a pharmacy. And it's glass. It's like a kiosk in the middle of the waiting area, and it's just boxes floor to ceiling of like all the prescriptions that you can't get in the U. S., right at the gate. 

Courtney: Meanwhile, there are food dyes that are illegal outside of the U. S. You won't find Pop Tarts or Fruity Pebbles in Europe because the dye used in the food is just so dangerous that it's outlawed. Good times. 

Jane: Yes! Maybe that's next season on The Dream. Other places. 

Melissa: Preview. I love it. 

Jane: No it's not. I already know what the next season's gonna be. 

Melissa: Yeah, but this season I'm very excited about you tackling life coaches. 

Courtney: Oh, yeah. What a scam. 

Melissa: Seriously.

Jane: This season, the topic just widened so much to just be like, essentially about like, what the fuck is our problem? Can everyone just relax? 

Melissa: I think the answer there is no.

Jane: That's episode nine. So just letting everybody know that's the end. The end of the whole season is what is our problem. 

Courtney: Episode nine is let's all do some breathing exercises. 

Jane: Seriously. Just stop trying so hard, everybody. Come on. Just like, sit down, take a load off.

Courtney: That's been my biggest life change in perimenopause, by the way, is trying a lot less hard. I'm just like, I'm done trying now. I'm going to take more naps. 

Jane: I mean, my friend Alicia said this thing that was really depressing to me a few years ago and now I'm like right there with her, where she's like, you know, I just kind of realized like, I don't have time or energy to like do anything major in my life. Like this is it. I'm doing it. I'm having my kids and I have my career. I'm not gonna change the world or get super wealthy or, and that's fine. She's like, I'm just gonna give up on that. And I'm like, oh yeah, that sounds good. That sounds good to me.

Courtney: And that's when the search for inner peace and happiness begins.

Jane: Yeah, exactly. 

Courtney: And that's how I found myself at yoga twice a week, which is like, okay, not what I would've predicted. 

Jane: God, I had to start working out for this season 'cause I got a life coach. And, people are crazy who like working out. I just don't understand it. 

Melissa: I know. I don't understand at all. I'm like, I will do the bare minimum to stay alive and that is it. 

Jane: Exactly, exactly. I will do it because I don't want to die. But do I feel good after or during? No, I hate it. And afterwards I'm tired. I want to take a nap.

Melissa: No, it’s awful. 

 Jane: And I don't get any endorphin rush. I don't know what that feeling is that people talk about at all. I get maybe like a little pukey feeling. Is that what it is? Like, I want to barf and nap?

Courtney: No, that's not what it is.

Jane: What is it? What is it supposed to feel like?

Melissa:  No, I've never had it. 

Courtney: No, I have had it, and it's, it feels like you could keep going, is what it is. You feel extra strong and extra great, and it's just an erasure of your limitations. I don't think it's a great idea. I think it’s not good.

Jane: Okay, I think something must be messed up in my, what is that called? What system does your hormones? Why am I blanking on this? Adrenal. 

Courtney: I think maybe you just haven't found the exercise that unlocks that for you because it's not everything. It's not just any exercise gets you there. You know, it's a… 

Jane: I’ve tried a lot of stuff. I just feel tired.

Melissa: Have you tried pony sweat? 

Jane: Gross? What? 

Courtney: What the hell is that? 

Jane: I do not like the name of it.  I'll tell you that much.

Melissa: Okay, so, I have a bunch of friends in L.A. who swear by this woman. Tt's a dance party. It'sbasically like Jane Fonda aerobics, but with an amazing soundtrack and you just get together. It's super body positive, super fun, whatever your fitness level is, just go dance.

Jane: There is one that's called Fabulous Ladies of Fitness that I do know of and I have gone and danced with them. It's similar. They dress like the ‘80s and do routines and you do it at clubs here. 

Courtney: I do that alone in my house? I didn't know I needed to sign up for a fitness class to do that. 

Jane: Yeah, I keep making this joke, and I'm not the first or even millionth person to make this joke, but like, you know how they say like where you go makes you actually like your life changes and it does. It sucks to know that, that like eating better and moving around makes you like sleep better.

Courtney: It does, unfortunately true. 

Jane: And just feel better. So lame. It sucks. I just want to watch TikTok. I just want to watch movies and TikTok, that's all I want. I want my beautiful, comfy bed. Also,  at this stage of my life, I finally have a house that I don't hate. It's a rental and it's not huge, but it's well appointed, finally. And I have a decent bedroom and a giant TV in there, which I've never had a TV in my bedroom in my life up until a couple years ago. And now I don't want to do other stuff. I'm just like, oh, I'll just take my bed tray, with my coffee back into the bed. I'm turning into Sonja Morgan, who does everything from bed. 

Melissa: Congratulations, I think that's what we're all striving for. 

Jane: My sister just got a Cameo from her for her friend's bachelorette party. And she does it from bed. She does the Cameo in bed. This is so on brand. I love you, Sonja. 

Melissa: Wow. So, I was thinking, I think this was before we were technically recording, but you mentioned in the book that you have coming out you talk about how so many things, MLMs and things, were started by men. Selling women cosmetics, selling women, you know things that they need. You guys are both on tik tok a lot apparently, so have you seen the people who are talking about men? Writing women and like how badly men do describing women in books. 

Jane: Oh, in movies and stuff?

Courtney: I've seen the girl who reads aloud from things that are often anatomically incorrect. And then she spritzes the phone with her sprayer. Like, no, don't do that. She's very funny.

Melissa: So, I was watching in bed as one does, this morning, and this woman was reading a scene of a guy describing how a woman had a tiny little purse just big enough for her credit card and she stored it in her vagina. 

Courtney: No, that's not a thing. 

Jane: What? 

Courtney: No. 

Melissa: So she could go out hands free and I was just like, no. 

Jane: What? 

Melissa: No one is that dumb.

Melissa: I need to go find the TikTok 

Jane: Brynn from the new Real Housewives of New York might be that dumb because she claims that the first time she used a tampon she put it in her butt. 

Courtney: That can't be true. There's absolutely no way that's true.

Jane: That's what Jenna Lyons said, and she was like, it's true. I don't know. I know, it can’t be true.

Melissa: I mean, maybe if you really have no idea what is going on in your undercarriage, maybe? 

Courtney: Uh yeah, I'm just thinking about how a tampon works, though, and there's no way. 

Jane: If by purse did he mean like heroin?

Melissa: No, no, no. It was like a tiny little purse just big enough for her ID and like a lipstick or something. 

Jane: Ow! Oh, ow, ow, ow.

Melissa: Nature's pocket. 

Jane: The ID part. Ouchie. 

Melissa: I know. It's not like they're foldable. 

Jane: No. Oh, yikes. Well, that guy's wrong. I wonder what his wife thinks of the book. 

Courtney: He's definitely never had sex with a woman.

Melissa: No. There's no way that person is married. 

Jane: Yeah. They often miss the mark. But here's the thing. Here's what's cool about the patriarchy. Ready? It doesn't matter. Because they're in charge. 

Melissa: That’s so true. 

Jane: So, they can make mistakes all the time. They can just fail up forever and they're the bosses and we just live in their world, you know?

Melissa: Yeah. 

Courtney: Cool, on that note I’m gonna go make a sandwich. I don’t know.

Jane: Jump off a bridge. 

Melissa: Are you going to make a sandwich for yourself or for the man in your life? 

Courtney: Look, much like Jane, I at this point have a house that I like very much and I've come to realize it's because no men were involved in the decoration or placement of said house. So it will not be for someone else. It will be for me. 

Jane: Do you not live with a man? 

Courtney: I do not. I have two dogs and they're both girls.

Jane: Me too, I don't live with a man and I don't know if I ever will again. Honestly, like it's so rad. I mean, I did live by myself for a bit early in my 20s, mid 20s, and it was great. And then the last eight years I've lived with just me and my daughter. And I cannot tell you how excited I am for her to finish school. I don't want her to grow up, because she's perfect and adorable and I don't want her to get any older or taller. But, seeing as how I don't get to be in charge of that, I am really looking forward to what is my house and my life going to look like when she goes away? Am I moving to Miami, maybe? 

Melissa: Like a full Auntie Mame era. Like, I think it's either gonna be Auntie Mame or Golden Girls. 

Jane: Yeah, it's like a studio on the beach, you know? Like alike a condo on the beach. Just one room. Cheap. 

Courtney: That sounds delightful. 

Jane: I know. Or maybe I move back to the East Village. And get like, a really cool Carol Radziwill apartment. I know I'm talking about The Real Housewives too much, but. 

Melissa: You do what you have to do.

Jane: You know, just one room that I'm renting, that I completely remodel without telling my landlord and I just live there till I die. What about that? 

Courtney: I'm really looking forward to my retirement life when I can finally read all the books like all day long. Just spend my day reading the books. It's gonna be great

Jane:. Yes, I was gonna say Maybe you should get a job where you do that, but then it makes it not fun. 

Courtney: Yeah, that's the thing I worked in music and now it's like…eh, music. 

Jane: Oh God, don't make me listen to a podcast. I swear to God, I don't do it. I can't. I just need quiet when I leave the studio.

Melissa: I know. My brother was over at my house and he's just like, “You never have music on when you're doing stuff.” And I'm like, “Music is distracting.” I can do it when I'm doing certain things, like cooking or driving. 

Jane: I do it when I'm having a party. 

Melissa: Yeah, but I cannot have it on because it's like, I get totally distracted by it. I get completely emotionally involved in it., I want quiet. 

Jane: Yeah. Going back to the fact that I've only dated musicians pretty much, I was never the person that was allowed to be in charge of that iIn my relationships. And these were all people with like record guys, you know, like record collections where they just come home and put a record on and you're like assaulted by whatever stupid music they like. And when I'm home by myself, I want it absolutely quiet. I just want to hear my own thoughts and read a book. I can't read or write with music on. It pulls me out of it. Sometimes I think about it with my kid in the house. I'm like, is she creeped out that it's so quiet around here?

Melissa: A friend of mine was dating a music supervisor and they went on a road trip and he did not let her choose a single song. 

Jane: Did she dump him? Did she dump him? 

Melissa: Oh yeah, totally. 

Jane: Oh good, good, good. 

Melissa: They're done. Absolutely done. And I was like, that is the biggest red flag I have ever heard in my entire life. 

Jane: On a road trip? I can see like going like a couple hours away. But like, a road trip? He's a bigger asshole. 

Melissa: Right? Like, what an asshole. 

Jane: What an asshole. 

Courtney: I've dated men like that who think that their contribution, like their emotional labor to the relationship will be choosing the music and that is incorrect. I choose the music. But I've also dated men who, their music taste wasn't compatible with mine and they just want to keep playing me things to see if I'll like it. I never will. So, now I don't date men who I think have not good taste in music. If I can't imagine waking up and on a weekend and hearing whatever you're going to want to hear, we're not dating. Like, it's just not…

Jane: yeah, I've, the closest I've come is like a, you know, 50 percent of their music is okay.

Courtney: That even would be too low for me. I don't have the stamina anymore. I'm like, no, I can't put up with your bullshit. 

Melissa: Great. Well, thank you so much for chatting with us. You are welcome back anytime. If you think of any other songs that have been ruined, tell your friends, tell your enemies. 

Jane: Okay, great. I'll just go date a musician.

Melissa:  Please don’t

Courtney: Tell your enemies. 

Jane: I'll go date a musician and then I'll come back with a new song that is ruined. 

Melissa: Fantastic. 

Jane: Okay. No problem. 

Courtney: We would love that.

Jane:  I just want to make content for you guys. That's all. That's my new goal. Not love. 

Courtney: That's all we're trying to do.

Jane:  Just content for this show. Thank you for having me.