This episode contains frank discussion of mental health issues, including suicidal ideation, and child abuse. If those are triggering conversations for you, consider carefully if you’re ready to listen. It also contains a conversation about why hot tub sex is absolutely disgusting (and not at all romantic) and why having it to Phil Collins and Jack Johnson is not in your best interest.

LINKS

If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal ideation, you are not alone. The Lifeline has resources to find your community and specialized help. You can also speak to someone by calling or texting 9-8-8.

Additionally, the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention is here to help, with more resources and community. 

If you suspect a child is being abused or neglected, please go to this website to find the next steps in offering assistance.

Listen to Kether’s song, “Stay.”

Get the books discussed in this episode.

Read Kether and Courtney’s piece on being plus sized for Refinery29.

Transcript:

Courtney: This episode contains content relating to child abuse and suicide. We wanted to share some supportive resources. If you are experiencing suicidal ideation, please reach out by calling or texting the Lifeline at 9-8-8. Or check out 988Lifeline.org. There are specific resources listed on their website for individuals with neurodivergence, in the LGBTQ+ community, for Black mental health, for youth, veterans, and more. The website also tells you how to find a support group. You are not alone. If you’ve lost someone, or want to learn more on how to help, check out 988Lifeline.org or the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention at AFSP.org. 

Lastly, and this is also very important, if you suspect or know that a child is being abused or neglected, you can find more information on what steps to take at ChildWelfare.gov. Links to these resources are also available in our show notes. Okay, let’s take a moment. And now, on to the show.

Melissa: Hello, I’m Melissa Locker.

Courtney: And I’m Courtney E. Smith

Melissa: And you are listening to Songs My Ex Ruined, the show where talk about songs that have been ruined by our exes.

Courtney: We are here today with actor extraordinaire and singer-songwriter Kether Donahue.

Kether:. Oh, I love this introduction Courtney. I’m really excited to be here. I’m already a fan of your podcast. 

Courtney: Let’s get right into it. We always start with the first and most important question: What song did an ex ruin for you? 

Kether: Well, not only did this ex make me never able to hear Phil Collins’s “In the Air Tonight.”

Kether: He also ruined the entire Jack Johnson album In Between Dreams for me. So he ruined an album and a song, okay?

Melissa: That’s a path of destruction left in his wake. 

Kether: He was my first love. I was 17-years-old, and I lived in New York. I grew up there. He was a sailor in Norfolk, Virginia — a very, very sexy sailor. He looked like Josh Hartnett, okay. And I was going to Fordham University at the time. 

Melissa: That is absolutely nowhere near Norfolk, Virginia. 

Kether: Oh, yeah. No, no not at all. So I would fly to Norfolk, Virginia every other weekend to visit him. Let’s just call him Frank. So my father was in the Army, and he warned me — when I told him I was dating a sailor, my dad was like, “Oh no Kether, a sailor has a woman in every port. Don’t do it. Don’t do it.” And of course I didn’t listen. I fell head over heels for Frank. And he did women, women in every port. He cheat on me and broke my heart. But there was the honeymoon phase, which me and him were in for a while. We would stay in these like really cheap hotels in Norfolk, Virginia and have sex. We had hot tub sex. I’ll just never forget, Phil Collins was the song playing when we had hot tub sex, and it’s so corny. Now I just associate that song with jets coming from all directions, like banging me in weird places. And it’s just like the corniest song to be playing in a really trashy, smelly hotel with like cheap champagne with a guy that ended up cheating on you and your dad warned you about it. Like… 

Melissa: I feel like the only thing this story needs is like waterbed sex afterward. 

Kether: Yeah, and then getting in- getting infested like by like water bugs or something. That’s the level here. 

Courtney: This is like a new definition of ruined like this ugh.

Yeah. 

Kether: Yeah, yeah. 

Melissa: I feel like it’s gonna ruin the song for me. Like I don’t know if I’m gonna be able to listen to that song anymore.

Kether: But I, and I apologize. like I feel bad for you now. I feel bad for everybody listening. 

Courtney: I think it’s okay. I feel like nationally, there was a moment during the pandemic when those twins that do a thing where they listen to a song for the first time, allegedly, they did that with Phil Collins and it went viral, with “In the Air Tonight,” and I think that ruined the song for everyone. So it’s okay if you like take it to a new level. The challenge was out there.

Melissa: Yeah, where did you guys meet? What were the steps leading up to having hot tub sex to Phil Collins?

Kether: That’s a very good question. So, I have a friend named Kate, and I went to high school with her. And we were in New York together, and her friend was like, “Oh, it’s Fleet Week. I’m, I have a new sailor boyfriend. We’re going on a road trip to Virginia to meet all his sailor friends.” So, I was like, why wouldn’t I do that? 

Courtney: In fairness, you were 17. Why wouldn’t you do that? That makes sense. It checks out.

Kether: I mean, honestly, it was so sweet. Like I- we drove however long the trip is from New York to Norfolk and I met all the sailor friends, and it was just me and Frank. We just hit it off immediately, and we just fell madly in love. He was my first love, the first man I said I love you to. The first man, e said I love you back. The first man who loved me back. 

Courtney: How old was Frank? What was the age difference between the two of you?

Kether: He wasn’t that much older. Frank was like one of those cute, bad boys that’s like, he’s not too bad that he’s bad, but he is like just bad enough that its sexy with an edge. So, he was so bad that they confined him to his ship for 30 days cause he did something bad. And now, I’m romantic, so I wanted to surprise him on his ship. So, I called his friends and I’m like, “Guys, I’m gonna surprise Frank on his ship.” I wanted to have a spray tan. I had never gotten a spray tan. I got it for the first time, and I get on the plane and everyone’s looking at me on the plane. I’m like, “I look good. Like, this spray tan works.” And then I go in the bathroom. I had spots everywhere. Like I, the spray tan went bad. And it was bad. 

Courtney: Wow, all the decisions a 17-year-old can make, truly. 

Kether: Oh yeah. And so I’m like, “Oh no, I’m gonna surprise Frank on the ship, but I look like bad.”

Melissa: Like you had leprosy? Like cheetah spots, like chicken pox?

Kether: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I’m like, you know what he loves my soul. If he doesn’t love my personality for doing this, then he doesn’t deserve me. You know what I mean? I’m surprising this man on a ship. 

Courtney: Correct.

Melissa: But, quick question about Navy security. Do they just let random teenage girls onto Navy vessels?

Kether: Yeah, they do. But also I had the contact. I was friends with his friends, like they came down to the port and I went through the proper channels to get to Frank, you know? 

Courtney: Did you though? You just had this number. There was no paperwork. Come on, Kether. 

Kether: Right, anyway, so I get to the ship. The lieutenant lets me in and they’re like, “Okay, so Frank is like just in here.” I’m like, okay. They’re like, “Frank, someone’s here for you.” And he turns around, and he sees me and he’s just, he just like screamed. He was just like, he was like frightened by me. And I was like, “Surprise!” Like it was awkward. Obviously, he thought it was romantic, but he was like scared. And he wasn’t expecting me and my tan was just so bad. So he was, his brain was processing a lot of information. But anyway, so then the punchline is so dirty, I just have to say it. So then, we did it from behind so he wouldn’t have to look at me. No, I’m joking. Had to say it. Had to say the punchline. 

Courtney: Sometimes they’re right there. You just have to swing for it.

Kether: But yeah, so then with Frank, the reason he also ruined the Jack Johnson album is because- so he was a big fan of Jack Johnson and we, that, that was like our album. And then, I don’t know man, I’m like a helpless romantic. I got very into it. I wrote him a whole book. Each song, I had like a romantic letter to go along with it. Like, oh, “Banana Pancakes.” And then we became the song “Breakdown.”

Melissa: So then who picked the song for the hot tub sex? Because I do feel like it is like an appropriately, sort of like intense ‘80s soundtrack for the hot tub. So who picked it? Who put it on?

Kether: There’s certain details that I remember with this man, and just people in general. And then there’s some things that are just a complete blur. Like he was one of those guys that knew exactly when the studio album was made and blah, blah, blah, like history, backstory. So, I think he probably introduced me to Phil Collins. But that’s the thing, we like actively decided we’re gonna listen to this song as we do it. Like that’s what makes it corny.

Melissa: But if he had a girl in every port, do you think he played it regularly for other women?

Kether: Oh, oh, Melissa. See this… 

Melissa: I’m sorry.

Kether: No, I’m glad you said that because you know what your question just did? It reminds me how naive I am. You know when someone screws you over and you are almost like, ‘Wow, am I that blind to the atrocity of human nature?” You know what I mean? Like I feel like sometimes I’m so gullible that when I find out something, like when I see behind the curtain, I’m like, “Oh, it was that bad.”

Melissa: Oh, I hate that. 

Kether: So you know what, Melissa? I wouldn’t be surprised if he did. I wouldn’t be surprised. 

Melissa: I am so sorry, yeah. 

Kether: Don’t get me wrong. I don’t like living in illusions. I’m all about honesty. That’s the only way I’m able to stay sober — I’m sober by the way. But sometimes I do feel that some illusions are okay just so I- my feelings don’t get that hurt. So I’d like to thank that I was the Phil Collins hot tub girl. I would, I’d like to have that for myself. 

Melissa: I believe in that for you. 

Courtney: Yeah, we’re willing to honor that belief. 

Kether: Thank you, even if I know it’s a lie deep down.

Courtney: We don’t, we don’t have any empirical evidence to prove that it’s true or false, so we can believe it’s true.

Kether: Thank you, Courtney.

Melissa: And then with the Jack Johnson, I kind of wonder on the flip side, since you wrote such like these heartfelt memories, associating every single track on that album. Do you think you ruined that album for him? Do you think he can now listen to that album without thinking of you? Cause I feel like that’d be really hard cause you put in all that energy into going like track by track and relating it to your relationship.

Kether: I wouldn’t be surprised. To be honest, I also wouldn’t be surprised if maybe it did the opposite of ruin it for him. Maybe he listens to it now and still feels like… In my experience of men that I’ve dated, I’ve noticed a lot of men, because they don’t wanna deal with the feelings — this is not all, but the guys who actually do things that cheat on you or do bad things.

Courtney: Side note, if you right now are a man listening to this and you’re inclined to say, not all men? You’re the problem. You are one of these men. Go on Kether. 

Kether: I think that a lot of men who know they, they do bad things, I think sometimes when they can’t deal with their own guilt, they have to find something to latch onto that makes them feel justified or that they did something good, if that makes sense. So I, I wouldn’t be surprised if Frank, because he knew he cheated and he doesn’t want to live with the guilt and shame of that, that it might actually make him feel good that he did something positive. Like, “Oh, if she wrote me all those letters, it, because of this album, I must have done something right.” So I wouldn’t be surprised if maybe that was.. reinforced positive memories for him and made him alleviate his guilt. That would be my theory. 

Courtney: I think that’s a really interesting analysis. That’s a lot to unpack, but it shows a certain level of emotional awareness that I think is a hallmark of you. It’s one of the things that I like about you.

Kether: I know it’s a strength of mine that I can get into people’s heads. That’s how I’m able to empathize. That’s how I’m able to be an actor, yadda, yadda. It’s also a weakness because trying to get inside people’s heads is a recipe to me trying to control things I can’t or shouldn’t be controlling. It’s a what, you know what I’m saying? All the things that classicly leads addicts and alcoholics to drink and use. So, I’m grateful. I feel like I’ve healed in many ways from the way that I was interacting. I think what I’m realizing is, even though a lot of men have done bad things, yadda, I have to take responsibility for my part. Not seeing red flags or continuing to try to think I could change or control someone when I can’t, you know? 

Melissa: Yeah, but one point about that and one thing, I hope you can find some empathy for yourself as a younger person. You were 17. You could not make good decisions like it is physically impossible. Like you, you have to forgive yourself for making bad choices when you’re 17, cause that is what 17-year-olds are programmed to do.

Courtney: Your frontal cortex was not fully developed. 

Kether: Amen! You guys are literal- so I don’t wanna get too dark here, but this is important. This is important. I’m a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. I was sexually abused when I was seven, and I do think this is an important topic people need to talk about. When you’re a child, your prefrontal cortex is not developed. I don’t think you even think your prefrontal cortex is fully developed until you’re like…

Courtney:  It’s when you’re 25, yeah. Not until you’re 25. 

Kether: Yeah, so to be a child, like the fact that people even have to argue why that’s so wrong is a huge problem. But like I do think there should be more like, well act, let’s get into some scientific reasoning here. Why? Duh, that should just be a no-brainer. But if you want me to like whip out some neurological arguments, let’s do it. 

Melissa: Right, well, it’s the same reason that like the U.S. is the, I believe is the only country in the world that incarcerates kids for life, like juvenile offenders. But it’s like they’re kids. They don’t have the brain, like their brains are not fully developed. And the fact that people, we incarcerate them for things and wow, this is not the way I thought this conversation was gonna go, but yeah. But the fact that you, you’re incarcerating kids for things that they did when they’re like, 12 is insane.

Courtney: Having empathy for yourself and making sex education a part of children’s experience is important. I have a memory when I was probably 17, maybe 16, of just like being at a party and deciding I was going to make out with this guy who was interested in me, just because I wanted to know what it felt like. You know, like, it was not a good decision. I didn’t even really know this person. There was no reason to do it, other than total curiosity. And I decided that, weighing the stakes and the risks of it against each other, it was fine. And I remember the whole experience just being, feeling really detached from myself, feeling like it wasn’t really happening to me. 

Kether: Dissociation. 

Courtney: Totally, and it was like just, you know, a moment that I felt I wanted to have because my peers were having this experience, and I wanted to know what it was about. Whether I was ready for that or not, that sort of casual sexual encounter — it wasn’t full sex, but it was more than I was maybe ready for. And if kids are out there doing that and are going to explore it and are going to have consequences, be it jail time for crimes or the inevitable consequence of having sex, they should at least have tools. They should have knowledge about how to protect themselves.

Kether: Absolutely, we have to stop thinking that withholding information from people is going to change the decisions people make. You know what I mean? It doesn’t make sense. I was also not expecting to bring that up. But now that I have a developed prefrontal cortex, my prefrontal cortex was like, I gotta bring that up cause I’m passionate about it. 

Courtney: This does segue into all the things you were saying about responsibility. And even though men do this or that, the way that you conduct yourself is what you focus on now in the world. This is a thing that I know about you from our interactions, and from what I see you put out in the world. For our listeners, Kether and I know each other because we worked on a piece together for Refinery29, where I did an as–told-to piece with her. And they had a really great initiative called the 67 percent, and it focused on plus size women, who are larger than a size 12, and representation for them. And an aspect of it was people telling their stories. Another aspect, that I really respected, was that Refinery would do several photo shoots every year with plus size models and make them available via Getty Images, just so that other outlets, people licensing imagery, had more diverse bodies to look at and work with. Because you can’t be it if you can’t see it, right? So that was like this experience that kind of bonded us into friendship because it was so personal. But then you’ve since gone on, you’ve been in so many great TV shows and people know you as this actor who is great at comedy and great at the vulnerability that comes with comedy. 

Kether: As you’re saying all this, I’m like, uh, can you pitch, can I hire you to pitch me to people? Go on, please go on, Courtney. 

Courtney: I’m not surprised that this started as a hilarious, dark, self-deprecating story and turned into something really sincere with a lot of depth because that is Kether in a nutshell if you ask me. 

Kether: Aw I love you, Courtney. Oh my god.

Courtney: The song that you put out recently, that is so good and so vulnerable — tell people about it.

Kether: Thank you so much. Man, I know not everyone believes in God, so please, I’m not one of those people who’s forcing an agenda. But since I got sober, I do. God is part of my life. So it makes me wanna say God is so good, because I do believe like synchronicities that I’ve experienced, when things come full circle, that feels like God to me. So I actually was not planning on this at all and it’s so cool, Courtney, how some things we talked about in Refinery29 that I — I’m gonna tell you something that I never, I never thought I would ever say on the podcast. When I, when we were doing that piece, Courtney, I didn’t tell you, I was in a treatment center in Florida for suicidal ideation, and for dissociation, and CPTSD that was directly linked to the sexual abuse that I went through as a child. My publicist contacted me and says, “You have this opportunity. This wonderful journalist, Courtney, wants to do this piece with you.” And part of the reason I had started getting that, the mental health issues was I was overworking myself. And so my therapist was like, “Well, you don’t have to say yes to everything.” I was like, “No, I want to do this piece even while I’m in therapy, cause this means something to me.” But I didn’t tell you. I like, I was actually in a treatment center in Florida doing intensive therapy, as I was like on the phone with you at night doing the piece. But I didn’t tell you because — I don’t know, at the time — now I could talk about it cause I’m past it. But at the time, it was vulnerable. But we do our piece, and I’ll never forget this part of it at the end. I’m gonna just read a little paragraph here or a little sentence at the end. 

Courtney, we say, “About two years ago, I was working out pretty consistently. I lost weight, but I didn’t like how I felt and it scared me. I thought, ‘Oh, I want to inspect this. What is this about?’ I was confused because we’re taught as women to want to be thinner. I wondered if something was wrong with me. Then a little voice crept in my head and said, ‘Who’s going to protect you? If you don’t have this fat who’s going to protect you?’ There is a folktale called ‘Skeleton Woman’ recounted in Women Who Run With the Wolves, by a psychologist named Clarissa Pinkola Estés. The skeleton woman refers to the inner part of a woman that carries around shame for feeling ugly or not good enough. I told my therapist I related to this concept. Her advice was, let’s put some flesh on those. I really liked that. It made me feel that this fat that I was perceiving as self-protection wasn’t a flaw that needed to be shed, but rather a healthy comfort that was healing for me psychologically and physically.”

So, what I never told you and what I couldn’t put in the piece, I was not protected when I was sexually abused as a child. And I told my father. I was not protected. The guy who did it to me, there was never justice. I still had to actually be around him, right? So I, my whole life I grew up feeling so — when I would go to the gym and lose weight, I felt so — anything that made me feel small and tiny again, made me feel scared and vulnerable. So this is where we go to the song, this is how it comes full circle. You know, a lot of people with unresolved trauma, from their childhood, experience — you can’t say someone has suicidal ideation for one reason. Everyone’s situation is unique. But something that is not talked about enough: When someone says they have suicidal ideation, they’re written off as attention seeking, crazy. So many people have suicidal ideation who don’t talk about it because they’re going to be labeled as crazy. But when I went to therapy, I realized having suicidal ideation was a normal, it was actually a normal, sane reaction to insane events that happened to me. It was my body’s way of screaming saying, “Why is no one paying attention to this?”

Courtney: Exactly, I talk about that — I was diagnosed with PTSD during the pandemic, and it’s related to childhood trauma. That’s the thing that made me feel the most normal that my therapist said to me. It’s like all the reactions you have make total sense based on the situation that you were in. And it just makes you feel like the sense of relief.

Kether: Yes, yes, and that’s why it’s so important. So to, for people who don’t know the song, I wrote a song called “Stay.” My therapist said, I want you to write letters to yourself. It was always my dream to turn the letters into lyrics of a song, telling myself why I should stay, why I have value, why I have a sense of purpose. And it’s the most meaningful thing I’ve ever done. And I want to really shout out the people that did it with me. Brian Kennedy, Grammy Award-winning producer, singer, songwriter, composer. Angelique Kidjo, they’re like, she is amazing — singer, songwriter, producer, composer. They’re a husband and wife, just dream team. And Justice Rooks, my dear friend who also contributed some songwriting, lyrics to the song. Brian Kennedy, me and got introduced by a mutual friend and — Keith Belcher, ooh, shout out people I like. And Brian, at the height of his career, I sang him a few lyrics at a restaurant, just acapella. And I was like, I just want to make this for Suicide Prevention Month. He canceled his, he like had a trip scheduled to Nashville the next day. And he’s like, “No, I’m, we need to make this song in time for Suicide Prevention Month.” He’s like, “I just know in my spirit we need to do this.” And I’m just so grateful that we did that song. So many people that have reached out. There was a man who sent me a DM. He literally had a plan, a plan to self-harm. And when I posted about my story, I don’t want to say like oh the song saved him. It was the post sharing that I had been through it, coupled with the song, it said it encouraged him to stay. And me and him talked. I still talk to this guy. I still talk to him. So thank you so much, Courtney. One of the reasons I lovee being on You’re the Worst is because it was like the fir one of the first that comes to really talk about depression in a meaningful way. And I’m grateful for that. Thank God. We could talk about depression more, but it is still taboo. And you tell someone you have suicidal ideation, they throw you in a psych ward. That happened to me.

Courtney: And they devalue you. They stop taking you seriously. 

Kether: But I understand though. I don’t want to shame anybody. Cause if you are a human being who doesn’t have suicidal ideation, and a friend or family member tells you, “Hey, I have suicidal thoughts.” I understand how that is terrifying. I’m not saying the person having suicidal ideation shouldn’t be going to therapy, and I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be going to a hospital in a lot of circumstances. But we live in this “or” culture. Why not “and”? It’s, yes, the person should go to therapy and you could talk to them. Yes, maybe the person needs to go to a hospital and you could talk to them about it, too. I have to say from experience in the hospital — This is how I knew the song, I was like, the song only means something to me if my friends from the mental hospital like the song. That’s, I was like, I only cared about their opinion to be honest. And when I got the approval of suicidal people who heard the song, that’s all I cared about. And a, a lot of things they said they want people to know is, when I told people I’m suicidal, they’re like, “You’re just chucked in therapy or the hospital, expected to heal in isolation. And then come back to your friends and family ‘fixed.’” If you are not someone with suicidal ideation, if someone tells you they have suicidal ideation, that’s an honor and a gift and an opportunity to listen with compassion and non-judgment because there is a reason why the person has suicidal ideation. People with suicidal ideation are not crazy. In fact, they’re the opposite. They’re sane and normal, and something has happened to them, which is they’re, it’s happening for a reason. 

Courtney: Yes, and I think things are happening to you, like the sort of creative path you’ve been on has happened for a reason. You’re able to reach people through sincerity and through comedy, and that’s really unusual. I hope people get that from the two different ends of this podcast and getting to talk to you little bit. 

Kether: I will never be someone who ever forces my beliefs on someone. But some something I do feel called to say cause it’s inspired lately, and with Brian, who, and Angelique, who I did the song “Stay” with, I really wanna make a gospel version of “Stay.” Kirk Franklin, if you’re listening. Because I will say, there are a lot of survivors of childhood sexual abuse by members of the clergy. And so, again, this is only for people it resonates with, but I know there are people who once had a strong faith. And so many people have so much church trauma, and it’s not a reflection of God or Jesus. As a Christian, I think more Christians should speak, stand up against antisemitism too. If you are really following the teachings of Jesus Christ, you are taught to love your neighbor as yourself. And there’s a lot of white supremacist Christians and politicians that weaponize the Bible for their own agenda and terrify people and make people think the faith is something that it’s not. I love the gospel, like only speaking from my experience, right? I want to make that very clear. But like, I have found a lot of healing with therapy coupled with my faith. And reading Psalms, and I’ve found a really beautiful relationship with God and with Jesus. And I, I don’t want, I hate that it’s become like this, whatever these white supremacists are doing. It’s just not a reflection of the faith. So, I just wanna throw in my two cents about that. 

Melissa: There’s always that bumper sticker that’s like, dear the Lord, please save me from your followers. When did you start writing? When did you start getting interested in music?

Kether: Melissa, it was when I was suicidal. I’m not going to lie. Like I, truly, before I had the suicidal ideation, sure, I always like to sing. I was, woke up like, “I wanna be an actor.” It’s not like I woke up in the morning like, “I’m gonna be a singer.” I’m just telling you, when I was suicidal, I went into a catatonic depression where I didn’t speak. And so writing was really the only thing truly that kept me going. As I started to heal and get healthy, I was just like, “Oh, wow.” I realized the whole time I was writing songs. I was writing letters to God, like asking him why I’m here, telling myself why I should be here. So it stemmed from that. 

Courtney: Wow, okay, that is a really interesting place for creativity to come from. I’m so happy that a positive expression of self came out of that. I’m not surprised to hear that you got into like academic studying of the Bible though, because when we talked and you were in this treatment, you were into, it seemed like an academic study of Jungian shadow work and therapeutic methods and stuff. And intellectualizing what you’re going through is a part of the process, so you can get to feeling what you’re going through. The big takeaway from this conversation: Normalize talking about depression, suicidal ideation, mental. Also normalize  talking about not making out to Phil Collins cause that is a fucked up choice.

Melissa: And also let’s just not normalize having hot tub sex. 

Courtney: Hard agree.

Kether: You’re not missing out. You’re not missing out. 

Melissa: And whoever came to your hotel room next, like I doubt they drained it or cleaned it or anything. So whoever came next was just sitting in that soup. 

Kether: I apologize to whoever was next. At least I didn’t actually — you know what? Sometimes I, you know what? Now that I’m sober, sometimes I do learn to shut my mouth a little more. I’ll refrain from saying what I was gonna say. 

Melissa: So, you obviously went on to become pretty well known in lots of TV shows. Your face must have been everywhere. Did Frank ever reach out to you? 

Kether: No. 

Courtney: What? Really?

Kether: To be honest, I don’t even know if he has an Instagram. 

Courtney: Let’s look. Let’s find out. Let’s look right now. Real time. 

Kether: Lemme check. 

Courtney: That’s such a good question, Melissa. Wow, and also now I feel insulted that he hasn’t reached out to you. Or maybe — he is the guy who put Phil Collins on to make out. 

Kether: Oh, he’s private. 

Melissa: Oh, you should follow him.

Courtney: And on that note, thank you so much Kether. It was a pleasure to have you on.

Kether: I had a lot of fun. You ever need a third co-host, just gimme a ring. 

Melissa: Oh, please.

Courtney: And hey thanks to everyone out there for listening ths week. We want to say we really appreciate Kether’s courageousness to share her story, and her advocacy to normalize reaching out for help and support. We listed resources in our show notes and please set aside some time to check them out, and share them with any friends or use them yourself if you need to.