LINKS

Get Molly's book, Other Flames, on Bookshop.org. It's a real trip back to the late '00s.

Read about Courtney's VMA experience with Mark Ronson, a solid dude.

TRANSCRIPT

Melissa: Hello, I'm Melissa Locker. 

Courtney: And I'm Courtney E. Smith.

Melissa: And you are listening to Songs My Ex Ruined, the show where we talk about songs that have been ruined by our exes. Hi Molly, welcome to Songs My Ex Ruined.

Molly: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. 

Melissa: We are thrilled to have you, and we don't tend to beat around the bush very much, and we were just hoping you could tell us about a song that an ex has ruined for you? 

Molly: I would love to. The song I wanna talk about that my ex ruined is Peter Bjorn and John's “Young Folks.” You guys know that jam? 

Courtney: Of course I do, of course.

Molly: It came about it came out in 2006. It's a classic mid-200s jam, and it epitomizes this time in my life, and in I think so many young people's lives. Especially those of us who moved to Brooklyn when we were 24. And paraded around the city to this song. 

Courtney: Guilty. 

Molly: So I'm gonna tell the story of how of my touchdown in New York City, which aligns with the, the ex. I am fresh off the a redeye plane from California, so I'm getting in at like 7:00 a.m. And I had found my apartment on Craigslist, and the way I'd gotten this apartment was because they said that they wanted a short person because the room, the bedroom of this apartment was like 5’ tall. Like I'm 5’2” and I couldn't even stand up in the room cause it was a loft. It was in one of those old Bushwick like artist lofts, you know. 

Melissa: This is so perfectly New York. Especially, it's like Craigslist, a Bushwick loft. for short people only.

Courtney: The sketchy nature of New York real estate and the 2000s.

Molly: It was….yes, it was all the things. And I arrive 7:00 a.m., and my roommate, who I've never met except on email, via Craigslist, comes down the stairs in — I mean, maybe you guys could guess wha she's wearing. American Apparel boy shorts. 

Courtney: Shocking. 

Molly: And she's like this sexy, real New Yorker smoking a Parliament 100 7:00 a.m., P.S.

Courtney: All the hipster notes are getting dinged here, just…

Molly: I know. It's so, it's so good. So we make fast friends. She's my like cool new New Yorker roommate. And she has like a case of Sparks on her floor. 

Courtney: Sparks! 

Molly: She takes me up to my, my 5’ tall bedroom. And the bedroom is painted what she describes as “desert camo.” So like, there's like browns and khakis, like in a camo pattern. 

Melissa: It's just a very Desert Storm, got it. 

Molly: Yeah, it's kind of like Burning Man-ish, but like New York style. And I am like, “I cannot do this. I have to fix this.” And it's, it's still early in the morning, and I decide that I have enough energy when I'm 24 to do something like this, where I'm like, “I'm going to the paint store.” So I buy a can of sunshine yellow and like bring it back, and I like start painting. And then I realize after I'm done painting, this is now midday, that I have no furniture except for a mattress on the ground. And so then I go out, round two. This is first day in New York City. And I go to this kind of junk shop. This is in Bushwick. And I was like, “I'm gonna get myself a dresser.” So I, I find this kind of antique-y dresser that I buy for $60 and then I'm like, “Shit, how am I gonna get this back to the loft?” And lo and behold, there are two men with no shirts on, also smoking cigarettes, wearing beat up Levi's and Jack Purcells with no socks. And one of them is like firing hot. And I, I look at him and I'm like, okay, you are the hottest person I think I've ever seen. Like, no, you, like, you don't exist in California, where I'm from. This is a whole new version of hot and I'm here for it. And so I don't remember whether I asked him or he offered to bring the dresser back for me, but either way it happened. These two shirtless men brought the dresser back to the loft, and that was the start of my relationship with this man who then became known as Dresser Boy. 

Courtney: I feel like we should acknowledge that men in the 200s all got nicknames until we were really fully committed to them, entirely because of Sex and the City. 

Molly: Oh my god, that's so true. I didn't chalk it up to that, but it totally was. Ugh, yes. So Dresser Boy that that day told me about a party that you guys probably went to that was those McCarran Pool concert. 

Courtney: Of course, yes.

Melissa: Of course. All of them. Every single one. I was working at one of the food vendors. 

Molly: Oh, yeah, I mean, they had great food vendors. They were like sponsored by Brooklyn Lager, or some one of the beer. 

Melissa: Yeah, yeah. Brooklyn Brewery. 

Molly:  Brooklyn Brewery, yeah. They were a blast. But this was also so like coming from California, I was like, “What on earth is this magical paradise, like a concrete paradise?”

Melissa: I know. I feel like we should like pause for a second. For people who dunno what the McCarran Pool Parties were, if you ever wondered what the coolest people in the world were doing on any like given Saturday night in like the 2000s, they were in an abandoned pool in Brooklyn listening to like the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, drinking like beer, and there was a lot of shirtless men with no socks in Jack Purcells. 

Courtney: They were  truly partying like they were in the Eastern Block in before the Wall fell in 1989. 

Melissa: Yes. 

Molly: And what were they playing? They were playing dodge ball. 

Courtney: Yes, they were in McCarran Park. The number of times I walked by McCarran Park to see adults playing dodgeball or kickball.

Molly: Yes, the man in question dresser boy was also like the captain of the, the Dodge Ball team, of course. 

Melissa: Of course he was. 

Molly: So, I go to the pool party and he's there. And then, you know, everything starts and we're, I think we're dating. Oh yeah. 

Courtney: Oh yeah, this is a common theme too. I thought we were dating.

Melissa: Aw, I love the ones where you think you're dating.

Molly: It's a common 2000s theme, I think. Or maybe it's a common always theme. I don't know. 

Melissa: I feel like a lot of girls in like their early 20s, you're like, we're definitely dating. it's just not necessarily true. 

Molly: It’s just not really necessarily true. Especially when it's the captain of the, the dodgeball team, you know? And you don't know that like you're not the only cute girl in Brooklyn, you know? It's like really sad.

Courtney: Or you know, you just choose not to acknowledge it because why would you?

Molly: So anyway, we are kind of dating at a certain point. We hook up for a long enough period where it makes sense that we would be considered dating. And this song is just playing in the background of his life. You know, it's like he is a whistler. And this song is like, whistling. They're like whistling their life away.

Courtney: Anyone who wants a time capsule of this time, just like go Google “whistle songs from the 2000s.” There were so many lists that this song kicked off like a whole trend of, “Whistling is so cool. Who else is whistling?” 

Molly: And it truly did have that carefree vibe, right? Like that time, that time had this really, pretty amazing if you were young in that time, like a feeling that you didn't really have to be anything yet. And you could just like have your weird barista job and like whistle your way home, you know? And stay up late and have no responsibilities. 

Courtney: And we were so blissfully unaware of the 2008 economic crisis just around the corner

Molly: Blissfully unaware of so much that would come and ruin our adulthood. And so we were whistling and this song was on like every rooftop, every dive bar, every pool party, you know, it was just the song.

Melissa: It was the opening song to Gossip Girl. 

Molly: It was, wasn't it? 

Melissa: Yep, first three minutes of that show was all Peter Bjorn and John, whistling.

Molly: Uh, so then what happened? How did my ex ruin it? After a year, so a year went by, it's now 2007. We were still like, you know, hooking up to the point where I thought we were dating. I'm not sure what he thought. There were some shady moments where I would like go to his apartment and the door would be locked, and it was like questionable. You know, things were not peachy keen, but like you know, we were a thing. And then New York at that point, like New York had kind of gotten the better of me, as it does. Like in that first year where you're like, the winter happened. and I was like, “Fuck this.” And I just, I felt like I couldn't hack it, you know? Like it gave me the feeling that like, oh, I can't really do this, you know? So during that dark period I had, I planned to go traveling with my sister for a year and I was gonna leave like, I think it was like the next summer. And so before I left, I, we threw like a going away party at my loft and Dresser Boy comes of course. And he, whether or not that song was on when this was happening, like, who knows, but it seems like it was in my mind. And to the going away party, he brought like all these presents for me and he even, he brought like these three mixed CDs, this song was on one of the mixed CDs, that had like his initials with like a heart with my initials. And I think he even wrote like, I love you on one of the, the disks. Which was like not said between us. It was not, that was not a thing. That was not what our relationship was like, but so I was like, “God, like right at the tail end he's finally coming around.” Right, like, I was like, this is wild. And then I like go into, I go to go to the bathroom at my own house, my own loft, and he is in there with the sister of one of my roommates and the sister's like much younger, and they like are acting like nothing's happening. Then she has this like huge hickey on her neck. 

Courtney: Yep, this all rings familiar, sounds true, is experiences that I've had to. This is what men were like then and it was gross. 

Melissa: Yeah, and young women, at least when I was in the 20, the magical thinking that you could do to justify like, “Why was the door locked? Why…?” I stayed with a guy who I came over and he had a massive hickey and I was just like…? “Did he…?” It took me so long to process what it was and why it was there that like, I think I stayed with him for like an extra week instead of just like dumping him instantly cause I was just like, “I'm sure there's a lot of good explanations.”

Molly: Like maybe he has a curling iron. 

Melissa: Yeah, totally. He had very curly hair. 

Courtney: We did not have the word situationship then, and if we had, we could have accurately classified so many more interactions for ourselves.

Molly: It's true. It felt like a different time in like that, in that kind of relationship way. 

Melissa: Right, but  it's also before cell phones really were popular. And so someone would be like, “Oh, I had a cell phone, but I left it at the office.” Or, “Oh, sorry, you couldn't reach me. I left my cell phone in my gym bag.” 

Courtney: Or even if they didn't, people just didn't compulsively check their texts. Like you weren't checking your phone constantly while you were out.

Melissa: And also it was so hard to text cause you had to press the button like four times every time you wanted to write it like a J.. So you're just like, “I was gonna text you back, but it was hard and I was tired.” 

Courtney: And that was really like understandable, yeah. So you were having your own like real life Gossip Girl moment, but for adults and um, at a really gross party where you're getting betrayed.

Molly: Yeah, like if Gossip Girl did Bushwick. But yeah, so then like I left and the CDs went in the garbage along with that song. And I still, when I hear that song, I mean, I will say, though, that like along with him ruining it, it still retains the magic of that time, of like that time be beside aside from him, which is that like the whistling spirit of that time, aside from him. Which is that, like, the whistling spirit of that time.

Courtney: The whistling spirit.

Molly: So I, I'm not entire, it didn't entirely ruin it, but mostly. 

Melissa: Right, but it's probably pretty hard to hear that song without just being immediately transported back to that, you know, time and thinking about the, you know, dresser Boy and his magical hickey. 

Molly: That is like a, a short story waiting to happen: the dresser boy and his magical hickey.

Courtney: So, I think for a lot of people this song got ruined because it got overplayed. Like everything you described kind of fits that vibe too, of like, it was playing in the background for two years straight and that is absolutely accurate.

Molly: Yeah, it was like at the Commodore and Iona and like all the all the dark and dingies that like barely exist anymore.

Melissa: Although I think Iona and the Commodor are still there. 

Molly: I just referenced two that actually do exist, yeah. 

Courtney: It's harder to remember the names of the ones that aren't there anymore.

Molly: I know, I know. Dresser Boy was really into The Lodge. Do you guys remember the lodge? 

Courtney: No. 

Molly: It was like that restaurant that was like, you know what, like New America or like the, like… 

Melissa: Oh, I do know The Lodge. Yes, was it on like Havemeyer or something?

Molly: Exactly where it was, yes. That was when, like you got brunch, even if you couldn't afford it. And you, you went and got like Bloody Mary's and  like it was a lot of like biscuits and like fried chicken in that area.

Melissa: Yep. Also, Enid's.Shout out for Eids. Enid's was like the place. 

Courtney: Yeah, it was the best. I do miss certain things about previous versions of New York City. Like when I go now, it seems extremely uncool. Like nobody's doing cool stuff. Nobody's going to dark and dingies. Like it's… 

Molly: I know, it's, it's pretty tough to walk around that neighborhood now and not feel a little depressed. 

Courtney: Yeah, it's all so clean.

Melissa: Well yeah, like Williamsburg now has a Nike store, a Gucci store. There was an Hermes popup on my block.

Molly: I know the latest one that really floored me was like the Glossier headquarters. 

Melissa: Yes.

Courtney: In Williamsburg? 

Melissa: Yeah, and there's a line out the door.

Molly: Yeah, and then I was re-floored when I went to get new Birkenstocks and the Birkenstock shop was literally a club that you had to go through a velvet rope to enter. I was like, “What is going on here?” It's like… 

Courtney: Yeah, I don't, I don't want New York anymore. Winter, but also all the things you just described. 

Molly: I mean, like, I feel like that's also happening in every American city. Maybe every global city.

Melissa: It's global. It's the same shops everywhere. 

Courtney: You know what? So, there are. But like this thing that I really like about Dallas is that it is a city of niches. And I live in East Dallas, and there are no like fancy shops trying to set up locations here. There's just neighborhood restaurants and neighborhood stores and maybe the third location of some local something, you know? And you can find all that stuff if you go to the West Side in the right neighborhoods, like it's all there for you if you want it, but I don't have to be anywhere near it. And I appreciate that.

Molly: Yeah, I kind of feel that way. But I moved upstate, and I feel like when I first moved to New York, it felt like there were still like discoveries you could make, you know? Like you could walk down the street and like find a wacky little art gallery that was like nothing, like a tiny room. And someone had turned it into a gallery. And happening here still, where like, I mean, you're not walking anywhere, you have to drive there. But there's definitely the feeling of possibility and like sense of discovery that can happen that just has been like, bombed out in New York. Like you can't, no one can afford to set up a weird gallery. You can't do anything weird. 

Courtney: Yeah, you can barely afford to live there. I have a Peter Bjorn and John “Young Folks” story for you. It's not about it being ruined, it's about, um, this moment in time that we've been discussing. So this is in the era when I was working at MTV and that year the VMAs were in Vegas. And I was assigned to Mark Ronson, who was playing throughout the whole show with this band. Like every commercial break he was playing and had all these different singers singing with him. And some of them included Peter, I think, he came up and did one song, like they did a little moment of “Young Folks” or something. But of the artists nominated for VMAs that Year Justice were nominated for Video of the Year for D.A.N.C.E.

And “Young Folks” was nominated for maybe like Best New Artist or something? I don't know, something unexpected. So it was kind of like the biggest representation of indie rock at the VMAs ever, with all three of those people. So, I walk in and because it's in Vegas, it's in a casino, at the Palms and we were on the floor. And I went to see what the tables looked like, cause I had to go get so many different people during the show to sing their little songs with Mark Ronson. So, I was just looking at the seating chart and trying to figure out where everyone was. And I realized they'd made an indie rock table, like on one side of the room and two tables back with all these people sitting them together. I think somebody in production was just like, “They'll just be more comfortable with each other.” And then, when I was going to get Akon off the red carpet, that's a weird name drop, I found that, Justice were stuck at the door, the side door, to get into the room with their publicist and cursing out a security guard in French that wasn't gonna let them in. And I was just like, “No, no, no. Let them in. They're nominated for Video of the Year. Like, what is going on here? Stop it.” So, yeah, it was a weird year. It was really a weird year. It was like the year — indie rock had been crossing over into the mainstream for so long at that point that it was finally, you were really seeing it and major labels were signing these bands and promoting these songs just because of, you know, things like Gossip Girl.

Molly: Totally, that was like around the time, like I remember, some of my other friends who used to make fun of me for like being a hipster quote unquote. And they would be like, “All your emo/indie songs that you like.” And then that year it was like they started playing Grizzly Bear at their cocktail parties. It had crossed over.

Melissa: Yeah. It's like when all the moms started playing Tame Impala and you're like, okay. 

Courtney: It just goes so well with edibles. Melissa, like, how are you gonna not…? 

Melissa: I don't think I've ever been higher in my entire life than when I was at a Tame Impala show at Music Hall of Williamsburg, where it was like so small that just the entire place was filled with pot smoke. It was insane. I stumbled out on the street just being like, “I am high as hell, and I didn't even smoke anything.” 

Molly: Oh, Tame Impala. That's a good, that's a good reference too.

Melissa: Molly, so part of the reason that I was so eager to talk to you is when I saw the name of your book pop into my inbox, because your book is called Old Flame, which it doesn't totally tie into like the book per se, but the title is so perfect for this podcast. 

Molly: Yeah, I mean, well, I guess the book would tie into this particular podcast because i takes place In this moment we're talking about, like when the hipsters were hanging out in McCarran Park. And it's like in 2010s Williamsburg, I guess it's a little bit later. But it has a lot of the reflections that we are chatting about now sprinkled in. But yeah, the title Old Flame is a little bit more, it's, it's definitely not as literal as, as it being about like an ex. But it kind of is about what we're talking about, which is being nostalgic, but also okay with leaving that era behind and becoming new and I guess it's like maturing out of that through all the processes of, of adulthoodIn the book, the main character Emily becomes a mother and kind of crosses over into this other world and like simultaneously breaks up with her old flame, I guess boyfriend, who is really trying to hang on to like the classic Williamsburg, like the, the artist lofts of, of the time. And he still lives in like the last remaining one. Do you guys know the one on Kent Street? That's like… 

Melissa: You mean Kent Avenue? 

Molly: Oh, Kent Avenue. She and her and her boyfriend are living in that loft and they get bought out, eventually, sort of at this simultaneous moment of them breaking up after they had a baby together. It's really about Emily, the character, finding herself despite all of that and like becoming, sort of learning how to find peace like with herself rather than like from the entire outside world and, um, other people. So that's why it's called that. It's not as like risque or sexy as thinking about it being all about an old lover. 

Courtney: I mean, thematically though, that really speaks to what the younger end of Gen X went through. This idea of like, we came of age in a time of so much external validation, so much conversation about the rules around how to be and what was attractive and what meant that you were successful as a person. And we've had to, honestly, to some degree we've had to let Millennials reset the rules for us. It's like we couldn't even do it ourselves, you know? We were dealing with too much other stuff to completely change societal rules. 

Molly: I think too, like, I mean, I think it was our cohort that was really fed the Kool-Aid of like, you have to do what you love kind of vibe. Of like following your passion. But then we got slammed with the like economic realities, right when we hit the, the streets for the job market. So, then like there's this total war going on between like, do what you love and then like do what capitalism tells you to do, you know? So I feel like I see that in so many people from our generation there's such a confusing message. 

Courtney:  It's true. And a whole e ethos, especially amongst so-called hipsters, which I have slowly come to accept that perhaps I was a hipster and that's why I couldn't figure out who hipsters were because it was everyone around me and me. 

Molly: It was that.

Courtney: But that's something I've had to slowly come to accept. That, and the idea of the ethos of hipsterdom and indie-minded, independent-minded people, from the ‘80s and ‘90s that we carried on just wasn't manageable. Like it didn't, it didn't work if you didn't have money. And it just was unrealistic. 

Molly: Yes, and it especially doesn't work now. Like I feel like it just gets like more and more untenable, you know? Like it's like you get priced out of becoming a hipster. 

Melissa: I always thought the only thing you really needed for a hipster was a slightly ironic haircut and maybe a slightly ironic facial hair and a white belt.

Courtney: Oh, no, white belts. White belts were more of an emo thing, right? That was like hipsters adopted it for a minute. 

Melissa: I thought they were minutes hip things, man. There were a lot of 'em. That pool party was definitely filled with some white belts. And ironic facial hair. 

Molly: A tote bag. 

Courtney: Definitely a tote bag. That you got it South by Southwest. 

Melissa: Okay, but tote bags just makes sense.

Molly: Really thin canvas tote. 

Courtney: Or from N+1. 

Molly:Yes, from N+1. 

Courtney: I'm jealous of Millennials now drinking really nice cocktails and mocktails though, while all we drank was vodka soda. 

Molly: Yeah, we had bad drinks. 

Courtney: We had bad drinks. 

Molly: We were on the PBR train. Like that isn't even a train you can hop on anymore.

Courtney: Nor should you, we shouldn't have been on that train. That was terrible. 

Molly: But I feel like there's no like cheap option, which is like kind of sad. I don't know. 

Courtney: I mean, I'm pretty sure that's why they don't drink, the Millennials. Cause there's no cheap option. 

Molly: That's true.

Courtney: So, I've been thinking lately about tapping into my personal life and trying to write fiction, but I'm not a fiction writer at all. Talk to me about your process doing that? Like you really took your real life-informed knowledge of a time and a place and even a, the way things were overall in relationships and turned it into a novel. How do you like walk that line between what you know and what you make up?

Molly: Such a good question. I feel like it's the question of a lot of fiction writer's life, because you're always working from life in some way, whether you're telling a totally fictional story or not, you know? Like the way you write good fiction is by infusing it with empathy and understanding, which is like what comes out of living life and watching other people live life. Um, I mean, this particular book, which is really unlike my first book — my first book took place in the ‘80s. Which like, I wasn't even born yet when it in the year that it takes place. So, there's a lot of research involved and I was like, mining the like New York Public Library archives and doing a lot of deep digging and like artist research of that time. And this book was really taken from experiences and environments in which I had existed. So I would say the way to break down like where life ends and fiction begins in this book is that there's, the settings are taken from from life and then the story is pretty much entirely fictional. So I actually found it very liberating to have the settings so dialed because I could then let the characters like do whatever within those settings. Like those things just lived inside of me because I had lived inside of them. So I was able to write those parts really easily, and then the story itself became much more fluid and it was able to go places that I didn't expect at all because the rest of it just felt so in place already, if that makes sense. What happens to these characters and these characters themselves are totally fictional, but the the scenes are ones in that I know very well — intimately. 

Courtney: That's interesting. My idea is so like free from any location that's sort of like what I'm stumbling over, but there are so many pieces of absolute gold from real life that I want to use in it.

Molly: Yeah, you can use them. 

Courtney: Oh, I, I am. 

Molly: If you have a good story, you gotta tell it. It. You can always change the hair color of your characters. 

Melissa: Oh yes. That's definitely the telltale mark.

Courtney: I'm just changing the names. All other details, exactly the same. 

Melissa: But he was a fiery redhead. 

Courtney: Just straight transcripts. 

Molly:  Exactly. 

Melissa: But, and also, Molly, were you talking about sort of like how capitalism crushes your dreams, but you're out here writing books for a living, which is amazing. Like that is the dream for so many people. 

Molly: It is, and I feel so lucky to have that as part of my life. I mean, it's truly like, just to give everybody, just to be real about it, like it is so much luck. I mean, it's a lot of hard work, but like, it's one of those things where, you know, if you meet the right person then and they read your work, like that is everything. And I don't want people out there to like stop writing and working because they haven't had that thing happen yet. So, it is really lucky that I get to do this. And I do work very, very hard at it. And I believe in like the work ethic aspect, but it's a very lucky thing and. But I also have to say that I have a day job, much like the main character in my book, I'm a copywriter. So, I work for brands, businesses, people, humans, artists, nonprofits, to like tell the story of whatever they're selling or whatever they're they're doing, I make it sound good. So it's like I balance creative life and money making life, and that's a huge part of my practice is trying to figure out that puzzle and trying to make space for writing within the other aspects of my life. And I actually feel really lucky to have come upon that as a job too, because it's one of the only ways in which a writer can make real money. I mean, there are many ways, but that's a good way that I've found where you can make enough money doing that, that you can afford yourself some space and time to do creative writing.

Melissa: Yeah, I had a friend who was a very fancy New York Times journalist, but  when she was like just starting out, she was literally working to name drugs. Like the pharmaceutical drugs. Like someone came up with the name ozempic. 

Molly: That's, that's what pays really well. My friend wrote about like vaginal dryness for a long time.

Courtney: Oh, that's a fun area of expertise, yeah.

Melissa: Gotta pay the bills, man. Well, on that note… 

Molly: Let's end on vaginal dryness. 

Melissa: We're looking for sponsors. If anyone in the vaginal dryness industry wants to, you know, come on in. But, so Molly, thank you so much. Is your book out now or is it coming out soon? 

Molly: My book is out now. It just came out on April 11th and it is probably at your independent bookstore. So go there instead of Amazon. Or you can order it on IndieBound, which will get you a copy from any local bookstore. It will go through the local bookstore network instead of the Amazonian network. 

Melissa:  Yeah, and we'll have a link on our bookshop.org website as well.

Courtney: You can find it on our show notes. Thank you so much, Molly. 

Melissa: Thank you so much for coming by.

Molly: Cool. Thank you guys.