The realization that your breakup wasn’t great can hit any time and any place. For Nabil Ayers, the president of Beggar’s Group U.S. and author of My Life in the Sunshine: Searching for my Father and Discovering My Family, it was in a gym locker room. The song? The Human League’s “Don’t You Want Me.” The breakup? He was the bad guy.
Links:
Obviously, you need to buy Nabil’s book, which is about his relationship with his father, the great jazz musician Roy Ayers.
Courtney forgot that she brought up Lykke Li in the first ever interview she and Melissa did together, for the Hairpin. Wayyyy back in the day.
If you want to hear more about how A&R works, read Courtney’s interview with Susan Busch, who has done A&R for Sub Pop, Domino, and Loma Vista.
Show highlights:
01:09: Nabil admits he doesn’t listen to song lyrics, and tells the story of this song getting wrecked
04:35: Getting emotional in locker rooms (and Anne Taylor Loft)
07:42: Nabil’s life in the music industry
11:34: How Nabil wrote his book
17:28: Working A&R in a cocktail bar
Transcript:
Melissa: Hello, I’m Melissa Locker.
Courtney: And I’m Courtney E. Smith.
Melissa: And we are here to talk about Songs My Ex Ruined, on the show where we talk about songs that have been ruined by our exes. We are here today with Nabil Ayers, who is going to talk to us not only about the song that has been ruined for him, but about the amazing book that he has written as well. Thank you so much for joining us.
Nabil Ayers: Hi, nice to be here.
Melissa: So Nabil, the first and most important question we have is: What song has been ruined for you?
Nabil Ayers: The song is “Don’t You Want Me” by the Human League. It wasn’t technically ruined by an ex, but it was ruined for me after a breakup. So it’s associated with an ex, but it wasn’t her fault.
Courtney: A classic story.
Nabil Ayers: Yeah, is it a classic story?
Courtney: Oh yeah. I mean that’s what, that’s how Melissa and I started this podcast, talking about songs that— it wasn’t a moment that someone ruined it. It was a relationship.
Nabil Ayers: Right, right. Yeah, and, and it’s a funny song for me cause I’ve known it,I mean, I remember buying the 7″ when I was a kid. And this was like a song that was on the radio and it — I’ve never been much of a lyrics person, especially not when I was, whatever, a 10-year-old when I heard the song. And so to me it was just like this fun duet. And that’s always how it was for years, even into my 30s. And then after this breakup, I was, you know, very fresh like, whatever, maybe a few days after this breakup, I was at the gym in the locker room, trying to practice some self-care, and the song came on. I’d heard the song hundreds of times at that point, and it just — I heard the guy verse and it was fine, and I heard the chorus, and then the, the woman’s verse came in and it just really kicked me in the gut. And it wasn’t the exact circumstances. No one was working as a waitress in a cocktail bar, like they do in the song. But it was just the idea of like he had his story, and then she had her story, and they agreed to break up. And it was more like the concept. And it’s weirdly, this like silly new wave song became like the most powerful lyric I’d ever paid attention to. It was really intense and really interesting.
Courtney: So you have really, uh, stepped into something Melissa and I talk about all the time. We have this theory that men ruin songs for women more often than vice versa, because men don’t listen to the lyrics. And did this change the way that you consume music? Were you more of a lyrics person after this experience?
Nabil Ayers: Nah, but, but I, I agree with your theory though. I mean, I’m still not a lyrics person and I, I run a record label. I hope none of our bands are listening, cause people spend a lot of time on lyrics.
Courtney: I know whose DMs I’m sliding into after this!
Nabil Ayers: Yeah, no, but it didn’t… it really just, it changed this one song. I mean, maybe it changed it a little bit. I’m sure I went back and listened to it to, to other songs differently. But really, it was just this song that I, that was always so light and silly for me, was suddenly just so heavy and intense and weird. And, and still sound… I mean, I listened to it this morning, thinking about this podcast, and it still sounds so light and silly and fun, and it still kind of gave me this little pinch in my gut. It’s like, oh my God, it’s associated just with this time and this place.
Melissa: Do you still have that same sort of visceral reaction? Like, does it still feel like if someone starts doing that song at karaoke, do you have to leave the tiny little room now?
Nabil Ayers: No, no, it’s not, it’s not that bad cause it’s not like we had a huge fight and that song was playing. So it’s not associated with an actual moment or anyone doing anything. And I, yeah, I’ve heard it lots of times since then. I mean, it definitely comes on and it is a karaoke song — you’re right. And I always think of that moment when it comes up, and I’m like, “Oh yeah, this is the song that really got me in the locker room.” But I don’t have to leave. It’s not traumatic. But it was a little more traumatic listening this morning cause I was thinking about it in the context of why I sort of feel differently about it. So it can be, if I want it to.
Courtney: Do those feelings rise up a little bit? Can you put yourself right back in that time and place just by hearing this song?
Nabil Ayers: A little bit. I mean, I, I was the bad person in the breakup, so it gives me this, this feeling of guilt.
Courtney: Hmm! Interesting.
Nabil Ayers: Which is a terrible— am I falling in line with every man who’s been on the show?
Courtney: No, not at all, actually. Not at all. We’ve only had one other man on this show, and wow was his story way different than this.
Nabil Ayers: I can’t wait to hear it. What’s weird to me is that I think a lot of the time when people really relate to a song or it makes them feel a certain way, it’s because they can actually relate to the lyrics. Like, “Wow, they’re describing my experience.” And this isn’t that. It’s just the idea that it’s these two people telling a story, and the timing was just such that it really just hit me in this weird way. And so it’s a, it’s a pretty unique, strange circumstance.
Melissa: Um, is that the most emotional moment you’ve had in a locker room?
Courtney: Wow.
Nabil Ayers: I mean, I hope so. I think it is, yeah. Great question and I would love to come back next week.
Courtney: I joined a gym to swim laps, and in the locker room at this gym, they constantly play songs from the early 2000s. Like, I’ll hear the Strokes and the Yeah Yeahs and I’m just like, first of all, how old am I now?
Nabil Ayers: Right, young people call that classic rock.
Courtney: Seriously. Second of all, is this locker room music now? It’s weird. I feel emotional in the locker room a lot because of what I hear.
Melissa: Yeah, I was just gonna say, I heard Death Cab in the grocery store and like I immediately texted Nick and I was like, “Oh my God, congratulations. You guys are grocery store music. You’ve really made it now.”
Nabil Ayers: You made it.
Courtney: Do you just troll Nick Harmer from Death Cab texts constantly?
Melissa: Uh, yeah, that’s pretty much all I do.
Courtney: Amazing.
Nabil Ayers: I stopped going to my gym right when the pandemic started. And, and my wife and I moved, and now I don’t go to a gym anymore. But I remember there are all these different gym remixes of songs that are like specifically made for gyms. Songs that are not at all like gym bops, that like hit really hard and they’re like bomp bomp bomp. And it’s, it doesn’t make any sense, but they can be played in the gym.
Melissa: Oh my God. Now I just wanna hear a Death Cab Gym remix.
Nabil Ayers: Yeah, exactly, “I’ll Follow You Into the Dark (gym remix).”
Courtney: Wow, the Thunderbolts remix.
Melissa: That would be amazing.
Courtney: I would be amazed by that. I don’t know that it would be amazing, but I would be amazed. I interviewed for a job after I left MTV with one of those companies that does the soundtracks in The Gap and lots of gyms and stuff. And the people were really interesting. It was a really interesting process and they made me, as like a test, put together what the mix for Anne Taylor Loft would be.
Nabil Ayers: Whoa.
Courtney: And you have to like get into the psychological profile of the customer and what you think the brand sounds like. And their response back to me when they got my mix was, “Well, there’s no Lady Gaga on here and the CEO of Loft just really loves Gaga.” And I was like, first of all, that’s not information I would have as a normal person. And second of all, who the fuck thinks Loft and Lady Gaga?
Nabil Ayers: Right, it sounds like you know what you want.
Courtney: Yeah, pretty much.
Nabil Ayers: What, but what was your mix? Oh, sorry. Was there some Tori Amos, some Tori on there? Maybe I would’ve put some Tori.
Courtney: No, that’s too emotional. I don’t think that, um, shoppers could deal with the heavy emotionality of Tori Amos. Like it needs to be lighter. It was more like a little of the boppy Belle and Sebastian, a little of like… a little like adult contemporary indie stuff. Things that would be easy for women who were trying to ease into their late 30s to listen to while shopping. I assume my music taste is now adult contemporary indie and Americana, and I’m just uncool and I’ve embraced it.
Nabil Ayers: Har Her— Heritage indie.
Courtney: Exactly. God, if someone from Spotify hears this and we see a heritage indie playlist pop up, I want royalties.
Nabil Ayers: It was so good. You’re like a cassette, like a cassette that you buy at truck stop. That’s Heritage Indie.
Courtney: Amazing. Well, okay, so you referenced something earlier, Nabil. You referenced the bands that you signed, hoping they don’t hear this and know that you don’t listen to their lyrics. So, will you just give a little background for our listeners into what you’re doing now and how you came up through the music industry?
Nabil Ayers: So I’m the president of Beggars Group, which is the company that sort of sits over five amazing independent labels: 4AD, Rough Trade, XL, Matador, and Young, and that’s relatively new. I started earlier this year. Before that, I actually ran 4AD specifically in the U.S. for 13 years. So I’m sort of at the same company and in the same building with the same people, but in a totally different role. At 4AD, I worked with the National and Grimes and Tkay Maidza and tons of great artists. And now I work a lot less closely, but across all five labels.
Courtney: The first time I ever met you, you were still with Sonic Boom, which is a record store and a record label. And the reason I came across it was because some… I was doing a viewer request episode of Subterranean and so many people requested Lykke Li, like that very first video for a “Little Bit.”
Nabil Ayers: Right, that’s so crazy.
Courtney: And I hadn’t heard it. And it was like the internet brought it to me and I was like, who is this? So good.
Nabil Ayers: So I lived in Seattle then and co-owned a record store called Sonic Boom, and it’s so confusing. So my partner had a label also called Sonic Boom. My label is still called the Control Group, and I would, I put out mostly music by Seattle bands. Then suddenly fell into this weird rhythm of putting out all these Scandinavian records and put out a record by a band called Figurines. And then El Perro Del Mar, and then Lykke Li. And I remember, actually, I must have met you that day cause I was in New York with her when she did it, but like a live session and a bunch of things in the MTV building. That was so fun. That was an exciting time.
Courtney: That was a fun time and I loved that whole flood of Scandinavian music. It was so… suddenly all this great indie pop was coming.
Nabil Ayers: Yeah, and now it’s Ann Taylor Loft music, I guess, right?
Courtney: I mean, some El Del Mar might been on my Ann Taylor Loft mix. I will tell you recently, uh, so I’m in this super secret playlist club with a bunch of women in the music industry, and some are not.
Melissa: Um, ow.
Courtney: I’m sorry, you’re not invited.
Melissa: What?
Courtney: But one of the recent monthly themes was cover songs and I put Taken by Trees, which is Victoria from the Concrete’s other band, another great Swedish indie pop band. Her cover of “My Boys,” which was originally Animal Collective’s “My Girls.” I put that on there and nobody had heard it. And these people are some real music heads. I was just like, wow. Okay.
Nabil Ayers: She’s got a lot of good covers. Yeah, that’s cool.
Melissa: As you guys were discussing being cool, and playlists, and Lykke Li and all of that, I was Googling what was on the Baby Gap playlist in 2004.
Courtney: Tell us.
Nabil Ayers: Please, en- enlighten us.
Melissa: Well, clearly the Postal Service.
Nabil Ayers: Oh right, yeah, yeah.
Melissa: The Shins, Stars, Counting Crows…
Courtney: Counting Crows.
Melissa: Apples in Stereo
Nabil Ayers: Huh.
Courtney: Wow.
Melissa: Kings of Convenience, Morcheeba, Sondre Lerche, oh Papas Fritas, I forgot about them.
Nabil Ayers: So this is like, this is the, so the Sonic boom top 25 that week, except for the Counting Crows.
Melissa: Oh, there was Polyphonic Spree.
Nabil Ayers: Oh yeah, wow.
Melissa: And then somehow Vanessa Carlton got in there, which I’m like, whatever, Vanessa Carlton.
Courtney: Because it’s catchy. It’s lists like this that like really make it clear why people are so confused about music from the 2000s, and what was cool and what’s not. Like…
Nabil Ayers: I, I’m sure the owner just liked Vanessa Carlton.
Courtney: I just, I’ll never get over that. The, the CEO just really loves Lady Gaga.
Melissa: Wouldn’t that be funny though? Like personal music taste was the thing that dictated what was played in every single store.
Nabil Ayers: Oh, that’d be amazing. God, my store would be so cool.
Courtney: Most people’s store would not be cool. The other thing you’ve got going on, Nabil, is your book. Please tell us a little bit about it.
Nabil Ayers: So it’s a memoir, it’s about my life. It’s called My Life in the Sunshine, and it is largely based on, I guess my non-relationship with my father. He is the jazz musician, Roy Ayers. I’ve never known him. My mother met him when she was young, 20 years old and said, “I want to have a child with you. You don’t have to be part of our lives.” And I’ve always known that so he didn’t leave us. There wasn’t a divorce. He was never supposed to be part of my life. I had an amazing childhood, but as I got older, just kind of became more curious and never knew anything about his side of the family or about even his medical history or anything. And, and eventually tried to reach out when I was in my 30s and connected with him. And it just opened up tons of interesting things about ancestors and slavery and music. It was really fun and intense to write. And now I’m running around the globe talking about it.
Melissa: Can you actually listen to your dad’s music or is it too much? Because I feel like I would understand either way.
Nabil Ayers: Yeah, that’s a good question. I’ve gone through phases and, I mean, I loved it growing up. Cause I never— that was never a problem. It was never like, “Oh, you’re a deadbeat dad.” Like, it was, it was the opposite. It was my mother’s, the narrative was always like how great he was and why she wanted to have a kid with him and how everything was exactly as it was planned. So, so it was always great. And then, when I finally connected with him, it was great. And then it kind of got harder, and he wouldn’t call me back or he kind of wouldn’t get back in touch. And that’s when I definitely started to go through this phase where I was like, “I don’t think I can listen to this music anymore.” And that almost bummed me out more than anything, where this music that had been part of my life for so long was kind of taken from me. But, but I got it back, and that’s a longer story than that. But now I definitely can and really enjoy it. So…
Melissa: If they start pumping it into the locker room at your future gym, you’ll be like…
Nabil Ayers: Yeah.
Melissa: This is fine.
Nabil Ayers: Yeah, exactly, yeah. That would be amazing.
Courtney: I also wrote a book and the— I mean, it was not, it was personal, but it was not literally about my family other than a few paragraphs here and there. And the process of going into it and being that honest with yourself about what you think, and doing all the research behind it was so intense that I completely got lost in it for solidly nine months. How did you manage to like do all of this and I’m, I mean, I imagine there has to be therapeutic work in it, and also, you know, function as a human and have a job?
Nabil Ayers: What worked for me is that I was really doing it on my own. I was just writing for fun and having a great time, and I wasn’t trying to write a book. No one knew I was doing this, I wasn’t telling anybody. And so I was doing all this kind of digging and writing about my father and trying to remember the few times I’d met him or trying to remember if I could figure out a way to kind of connect it, maybe I could write a book. And then I’d done a lot of that hard work. And so I don’t think I could have done it if I was trying to write a book.
Courtney: That’s a really smart way to go about it. Like honestly, the amount of insecurity I felt in the process, thinking about what people were gonna say and blah, blah, blah. And then people had a lot to say, and it would’ve been a lot better if I didn’t care. That’s, that’s the most healthy way to do it.
Nabil Ayers: It’s hard to not care though. I mean, I was in a weird, lucky situation that I’ll never be in again.
Melissa: So having written this book, having dedicated all this time to it, and then you’re really exposing your family to the world and just talking about all this deeply personal stuff, is it weird to have to now go out to these like book readings, book signings? And you’re up there reading these painful chapters of your life while people are like checking Instagram and shopping Amazon on their phones while you’re talking, is it weird?
Nabil Ayers: I know, right? It was weird at first. I mean, I, the day the book came out was the first book tour event I did in Brooklyn. Then I did one in L.A. the second night, and it got pretty unweird pretty fast. I mean, the first few days were pretty intense, but I think it was kind of like, “Oh, wow, those all went great and people said nice things and I’m having fun and this isn’t making me feel terrible.” Like, I really didn’t know what I would feel like. And once I felt fine, now it’s, I don’t wanna say it’s easy and there’s always surprise questions. There’s different questions every time. There’s different audience questions and it’s fun to have, you know, that’s why it doesn’t feel boring. And it’s fun to still go places and do it cause people always have different questions and comments. It is hard in that it takes a lot of emotional energy and thought and it’s… You know, I come from playing drums in bands, and so in my head it’s like, “Yeah, it’s the same thing.” Except it’s just me, and I’m the singer and the songwriter and I’m not, you know, hiding in the back. It’s not as hard as it was right when I started, and I really like doing it.
Melissa: Yeah, I was just gonna ask if you actually listened to the lyrics on your dad’s albums?
Nabil Ayers: No, I mean, I, I, I’m trying to think now. I mean, “Everybody Loves the Sunshine” is the most famous song, and the song that the book is named after, My Life in the Sunshine. I mean, I know those lyrics. I haven’t really thought about them. I think they’re just kind of like describing how great the sun feels, but maybe there’s some much deeper, darker thing that I never thought about. But no, I haven’t really paid attention to his lyrics. Now, I might.
Melissa: Yeah, I feel like you need to maybe go back and like spend some quality time on Genius with your dad’s songs.
Courtney: Or, or, maybe not. Maybe you need to do the exactly not that. Like the, the dive has been deep enough. Maybe you don’t have to.
Nabil Ayers: I guess we just proved how much of a lyrics person I’m not, that I can write this book and do all this work and still be like, “Oh, huh, I never really thought to listen to the lyrics.”
Courtney: I can’t thank you enough for like validating this theory we have, because it really like makes me feel confident in my opinions.
Melissa: Um, but what do you put in your Instagram captions if you don’t listen to song lyrics?
Nabil Ayers: Right. I mean, I just quote “Don’t You Want Me” cause those are the ones I know. So I’m just always going back to that song.
Courtney: Wow!
Melissa: Oh, that explains why every single one of the pictures on your Instagram says, “I was just a waitress in a cocktail bar.” Even if it’s like a picture of you and your dog, and I didn’t get it. But now I do.
Courtney: What I wanna know is, in your job as the head of the Beggars Group, how involved are you in A&R and in throughout your career, how much has like the way music makes you feel influenced the artists that you work with?
Nabil Ayers: Oh, interesting. I mean, I’m, I’m really uninvolved in A&R now, in this job. A&R is very much a label thing. So those five labels have people who sign artists to those labels and make records. And the Beggar’s staff really gets involved, for the most part, once the record exists and it’s time to get it out in the world. And so it’s all the people who do press and radio and marketing and all the backend stuff. So I’m, I’m a huge step away from that. And, I already sort of miss it. It’s funny to, you know, to the bands I’ve worked with for 10 years, where I would’ve been the person hearing the demos and sending it to the office and saying, “Here, here’s the first single.” Whatever, and now I receive that email and it’s so strange to be like, “Oh, I, I guess they did it without me, that’s fine.” Which is good.
Courtney: Yeah, that’s different.
Nabil Ayers: But interestingly, I mean even at 4AD I wasn’t, I wasn’t an A&R person. I signed a couple of things, but I was mostly just actually running the label and running the campaigns and, and whereas the Control Group, my own label which I still do, it’s just me and it’s very small. But I think all of the Beggars labels and my own small label, it is all about the emotional connection. Like no one’s out there from these labels looking at TikTok and signing artists based on that kind of stuff. It’s all about like, we found this artist, we love this music, we wanna work with these people. Of course, we hope it’s big and we hope it works, but it’s not like this is blowing up, so we have to sign this. That’s not really the ethos, and it’s great to work at a company where that’s the vibe.
Melissa: Is there someone, like a dedicated person in your team to actually listen to the lyrics?
Nabil Ayers: The VP of Lyrics in the in the office next door.
Courtney: I volunteer, I, I’ll take the job.
Nabil Ayers: No, but I hope and assume that the A&R people, the people who actually sign bands and you know, truly work with them through the album making process, care more about the lyrics than I do. I think they do.
Courtney: How many of the A&R people are men? Just asking.
Nabil Ayers: God, I have to think, but I mean, I’m guessing it’s about half.
Melissa: Yeah, but you also just said you worked in A&R for a long time and you never listened to lyrics. So who’s listening to the lyrics?
Nabil Ayers: Everyone but me?
Courtney: Half of the A&R staff.
Nabil Ayers: The fans.
Courtney: The fans, that’s true. That’s true.
Melissa: We need something to scrawl in the bathroom stalls. I mean, come on.
Nabil Ayers: In lipstick.
Courtney: Everybody needs something to get tattooed on themselves and if it’s not song lyrics, I don’t know what you’re doing.
Nabil Ayers: Right, I have a friend, a male friend, who has the tattoo says “My aim is true.” That’s a lyric.
Courtney: Oh, it is song.
Melissa: Oh, that’s a good one. I’m just gonna get Waffle House lyrics, or menu items.
Courtney: Waffle House Records
Nabil Ayers: There is a song, isn’t there? There’s a Waffle House song isn’t there? In the seven-inch jukebox? Yeah.
Melissa: There’s a whole Waffle House record label, but stay tuned for that.
Nabil Ayers: Really?
Melissa: Yes, I have a story that we’re working on.
Nabil Ayers: That, that’s another episode. Okay.
Courtney: That’s, that’s a different podcast.
Nabil Ayers: All right.
Melissa: So in closing, I would love to know, do you have anything you wanna say to this person about this song?
Nabil Ayers: Not really. We, we don’t talk. And she, I mean, she wouldn’t even know this story cause it wasn’t, it wasn’t our song. It was my weird connection to it right after. So, nah. We’ll let, we’ll let it lie. But you laughed when I said we’re not really in touch because Is that the common… is that the guy thing again?
Courtney: That’s everybody. I think pretty much everybody who’s told us these stories, they are not in touch with the person the story’s about.
Nabil Ayers: Really? That’s an, I mean, I know a lot of people who are either in touch or even friends with exes, but that’s not been your experience?
Courtney: Not the exes that ruins songs for them. Um, I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s the common theme or not, but…
Melissa: Maybe it’s just a bridge too far. Like not only did you, I don’t know, cheat on me or something, but you also ruined my favorite Human League song. Like…
Nabil Ayers: …you took my song.
Courtney: Well, thank you so much for being with us, Nabil. It was a pleasure.
Nabil Ayers: Thank you. It’s been really fun.
Courtney: And you can come back anytime. Just you have to have some more songs ruined.
Nabil Ayers: I’ll go listen, I’ll listen to some lyrics and then I’ll, I’ll email you.
Melissa: Listen to some lyrics. Listen to some songs, come back, report your feelings, let us know.
Courtney: Thanks for joining us for another episode of Songs My Ex Ruined. If you’re enjoying the podcast, give us a review or rating on your favorite app and it will really help. And hey, subscribe to get new episodes as soon as they drop.
Melissa: Songs My Ex Ruined is a production of Nevermind Media. Executive Producers are Melissa Locker and Courtney E. Smith. Produced and edited by Stephanie Aguilar. Sound design and themes song by Madeline McCormick. Artwork by Sophie Locker. Additional production support from Casey, Steve Archer, Bemo, Newton, and all the other good dogs and cats out there.
