Some relationships are so bad they don't just ruin one song — they ruin two. Podcast host Robin Hopkins joins us to talk about the girlfriend who did just that, but still got invited to her wedding.

LINKS

Listen to Well... Adjusting everywhere you get podcasts. And check out Robin's other pod, Dead Headspace.

Robin also wrote a great book called If These Ovaries Could Talk (which was also a podcast) that's all about creating an LGBTQ+ family.

Speaking of, buy all the books we mentioned in this episode over at Bookshop.org.

TRANSCRIPT

Melissa: Hello, I'm Melissa Locker. 

Courtney:  And I'm Courtney E. Smith. 

Melissa: And you are listening to Songs My Ex Ruined, the show where we talk about songs that have been ruined by our exes. 

Courtney: So, today we're talking to Robin Hopkins and she is the host of Well… Adjusting, an amazing podcast where people tell incredibly personal stories about their mental health, their finances, and their lives. And she's also the host of Dear Headspace. And today, ee're gonna get in her head space. We're gonna see how well adjusted she is. 

Robin: Oh, I see what you did there. 

Courtney: Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, Robin, we like to not stand on any kind of laurels here and jump right in. Tell us about an ex who ruined a song for you?

Robin: Okay, well, so just how I do everything, I was already coming back to Courtney being like, can I give you two songs? Like I can't fuck your format, I gotta have to give you two songs. So I had this ex, and I won't 100 percent say they're ruined, but they're ruined in the sense that it just takes me right back to that late 20s time period, which is not wonderful. But the first song is “Brick” by Ben Folds Five. 

Robin: And I do wanna say…. 

Melissa: Wait is this like an abortion story? Cause I'm here for it. 

Robin: No, it's much more literal. And then the other one, the other song that's intricately connected is “Thin Line,” Annie Lennox.

Courtney: So, these are really diametrically opposed songs. These are like, in terms of the people singing them, in terms of the song. Please, tell the story. 

Robin: So I- I mean, I don't wanna say I had a bad picker, but I was definitely drawn to wildly unavailable people — women, men, some straight girls. Like the whole, like if you could just show up,show me just a little bit of interest, and then not be healthy in any way? I was like, “Well, you're cute.” And so this was one of those relationships. Now she's still a friend of mine today. She was at my wedding, so we're still close. Just talked to her recently. But it was a shit show of a relationship and the “Brick” song is just as literal as it can get. Like it was like, we are both unhappy. Nobody's acknowledging that. And when I would hear it, I would just be sitting in the car, just be like, “She’s a brick and I’m drowning…” Like it was like so bad. And yet I refused to leave.

Melissa: Wait, would she ask you, “Why are you humming that song?”  

Robin: I was like — no. I was like, I said, “This reminds us of us.” And she was like, “I don't think that's a good thing.” And I was like, “It's not!” Everybody was like, “What are you doing?” 

Melissa: Did you guys ever read The Hitchhiker's Guy to the Galaxy? So, there's this, I think it's in Hitchhiker, where this guy starts just whistling one note over and over again. And they're like, “Why are you doing that?” And he's, “Oh, I'm just singing the mad part, about ‘Mad About the Girl” because this guy's mad!” So I was just thinking about that.

Courtney: I mean, Robin, this is the most indirect way to not have a conversation about a relationship ending. Just sing a song about it instead. 

Robin: I know. And the fact that I was so connected to it and then yet I was still like, “I should probably stay in this relationship for another six to eight months.” I remember my sister coming to visit, and we had just had this huge fight. And my sister was just like, “Man, you guys like fight a lot.” And I was just like, “Yeah.” And all my friends knew it was bad. But I just, at that time, I really had the knack for, I would choose the unavailable person, and I didn't figure this out until I hit my 30s. And then when I would finally break them. And I'd get in there and I'd be like, “Oh, you're showing up for me now.” And then I'd be like, “Well, it's too late now.” I mean, I was, I was just, I was very open. I was ready. And now the damage is done. Well, before I would break up with them, I would start packing my sweatshirts two to three weeks in advance so that I would get them all back. Very healthy stuff. 

Melissa: How many sweatshirts are we talking about here?

Robin: I again, referring back to the lesbian thing, probably lots. But any favorite t-shirts, Any, you know- which I'm still, I'm wearing for you, Courtney, a branded MTV2 shirt right now.  

Courtney: I remember those double-headed dog era days of MTV2, in the late 2000s.

Robin:  So this is the kind of gal I am. I needed my t-shirts back. I needed my shit back. 

Courtney: Well, how much did you know about that song? Like how much did you know about what the real meaning of the song was? Like Melissa asked if it…  

Robin: I knew nothing. I didn't know that that was even about that. So now you're gonna have to tell me. 

Courtney: The chorus of it definitely sounds like it applied to your relationship, but the whole story of the song is, it's him taking his girlfriend to the abortion clinic.

Robin: Oh my God. I have like goosebumps. I had no idea.

Melissa: But I sort of love that because I feel like people constantly, or at least I do, I constantly misinterpret songs. I constantly think songs apply to me that have ab- like I just think that some great lyric. I'm like, “Oh my God, that lyric is so right.” And then you read the lyrics, you're like, “Oh, I would- that is not what that said whatsoever.”

Courtney:  Much more specific than I thought it was. 

Robin: Somebody was saying this morning at my recording for Well… Adjusting, they were talking about how like dirty Christina Aguilera “I'm a genie in the bottle” is. And I was like, “How did I never put that…?” They were like, Robin, “Come, come, come and let me out?”” I was like, literally, I was just like, “This is, this song's catchy!”

Melissa: Wait, I actually did not know this at all either. My brother had a “Genie in a Bottle” key chain and would play it all the time, like it would play it whenever. No clue. 

Robin: Just rubbing and…

Courtney: Okay, no, for the people listening at home: Robin referenced this already, but she and I worked together at MTV. We worked in the music programming department. Literally watching TRL every fucking day. And you had no idea that song was about masturbation or sex? 

Robin: None.

Courtney:  It took me a long time to accept that “...Hit Me Baby One More Time” was a sexual song. Like I really didn't want it to be. I think that wasn't so much that I didn't acknowledge it as much as I rejected the premise because it was too uncomfortable.

Melissa: It's so uncomfortable. And it's so like male gazey that like we were not the intended audience for any of that in any way. So yeah, it was meant to make us uncomfortable cause we were just like blugh, I don't like any of this.

Robin: I'm only mad at her mom right now, whenever I think of that. Like would, I would never let — my daughter’s pretty close to that age right now — in that outfit, the sexualized-ness… 

Courtney: Her mom wasn't even there on the set when they did that. She was off being Lynn somewhere. Anyway.

Robin: No wonder it turned out the way it did.

Courtney: Mm-hmm, indeed. Indeed. 

Melissa: I mean, we can't just blame the mother. Come on, people.

Courtney: Well, we blame the father most of all but… 

Melissa:  Mostly blame the father. 

Robin: He's just shit bird too. So I'm just adding, you know. 

Melissa: He's definitely a shit bird. 

Robin: I do just wanna say for the folks that are listening, I'm not necessarily this dumb, like when you listen to Well… Adjusting, I am actually very in tune and I do have some things to say that are smart. But right now I'm not coming off so smart.

Courtney: You're not the host here. Like you have a responsibility, I think, when you're the host of the podcast to be the voice of reason anduide your guests through and help them have realizations, especially on a podcast like Well… Adjusting. Today, the shoe's on the other foot.  

Robin: Yeah, no, I just get to say crazy shit. And then it's like, and we get to walk down memory lane. It's like amazing. 

Melissa: And we're here for it. 

Courtney: And then people are gonna go from this and listen to your podcast and be like, they're gonna be like, “Oh my God. Wow! This woman!”

Robin: She's got several personalities. 

Melissa: I'm  still just gonna be sitting here thinking how you didn't know that “Brick” was an abortion song?

Robin: I know. No. And someone from our department was friends with Ben Folds. And so, I mean, really — and she sat right behind me. I mean, there's a lot of things I should have been picking up on. I was very busy. I was, I was very busy at the open bars from the record labels. 

Courtney: There were a lot of them, quite frankly.

Robin: Those were good times. Those were good times. 

Melissa: Have you heard the song again, recently? Like when's the last time you heard the song that you were like, “Oh yeah, I made some bad choices in my 20s.”

Robin:  I mean, every time I hear it, I think of my ex and I kind of laugh. I mean, in a way, this is why I said it's, it's, I'm breaking your format. It takes me back to that time, but it's also a really amazing moment for me to look at myself and be like, I'm not that person anymore. Like I, I've come through that. And my friends and I all laugh now how they were all like, “You know, this is not good, right?” And I was like, “Hey guys, like I know. I know it's not.” I said, “But you're just gonna have to stay there with me while I beat my head against this wall, cause this is, I'm not ready.” And that's all I was up to. And so I'm one of those people that like, you know, in all seriousness, I'll never- even, like my really shitty childhood, I'll never, I wouldn't change anything cause every single step took me to where I am. You know? I mean, maybe I would make some of it a little better. We gotta keep some of the trauma because like now I'm great with money. Now I'm great with like, there's nothing I can't do on my own. You know, like, like all that came out of trauma. So like I am always a person that will look at whatever the past was bad or good and be like, all right, well, it's where I am today. What can I do differently? What did I learn? 

Courtney: And how many more years do I need to be in therapy before I embrace that worldview? 

Robin: Well, you just need to come on. Well… Adjusting, which we're, which we're in the talks about/

Courtney:  Okay, all right. 

Robin: Yeah, no, as if I could fix you. Like probably lots. I mean, by the way, I will say that's my, that's my other big thing is, I've, like into the age that I'm in now, which is that we're never fixed. I, I just believe we are absolutely never fixed. Like the same triggers that were given to you as a child, in whatever way they were given to you, will always be there. But what you can do is recognize it, notice it, reset, and make a different choice. 

Courtney: I think for Melissa and I, a part of the reason that this podcast idea is appealing is because it helps us to recontextualize experiences and relationships from the past. And also listen to other people tell us theirs that are sometimes worse and sometimes lesser but always like funny and always human. And it gets like- we ask some of the same questions over and over, especially like the one that Melissa just asked you about, “Does it take you back there? When's the last time you heard it? How do you feel when you hear it?” Because it gives you a chance to examine how am I contextualizing this song and what's the impact it has on me and where am I at with this relationship now? And that's like the, the stuff that's really interesting. 

Robin: Well, that's why when you announced the podcast before you had even launched it, I was like, A) That's a great idea and I fucking love it. I was like, B) Get John Cusack on your podcast immediately, just because that's exactly what he did was reframe recontextualize in that movie.

Courtney: High Fidelity? 

Robin: Yeah, he just went back and, and, and like realizing, “Oh my God, she didn't break my heart. I was a dick.”

Melissa: Okay, but then, so do we want John Cusack or we want Nick Hornby? 

Courtney: We want Nick Hornby. 

Robin: I mean, why can't we have both? 

Courtney: Tell us the Annie Lennox song that reminds you of your ex, and what is the story there?

Robin: Okay, so it's “Thin Line.” You, y'all are from familiar with the song? 

Courtney: Yes.

Robin: It's building. It's, it's four o'clock in the morning. He's not home, and then it just keeps building. By the third, I don't know what those things are called. Not the chorus, but the….

 Courtney: Verse. 

Robin: Thank you, thank you. I used to have words I no longer do. By the third verse, she's murdering him.

But what I, I love about that song is it like, it fucking builds. It's like, I think such a powerful song, and by the end you're like, “Oh shit, she's, she's…!” And so, and so my ex, she would come home for wherever, like, I think she was in law school at the time, or you know, or she'd be out or whatever. She'd get into the apartment and it would, if it was blasting, she just knew she was in like a shit ton of trouble. And she would be like, she'd come in, she'd be like, “Oh shit.” She was very flirtatious. She was always like, I don't, I like we would have conversations like, ‘Stop me if I'm wrong here. Another person told you that they loved you? And now it's a man from law school?” And I was like, “I just wanna say something. We've been in this relationship for however long we've been in, no one has told me they love me. No one has inappropriately, and I'm not saying you're not very pretty cause you are. However, what are you doing? For these people to show up in this way, what is your behavior?” So it was just like we were always in some place where I was hearing something or something was happening and that it would just… I have such a strong, or had I, I think I'm much, much, I'm, I'm with a, a, a partner that's right for me now. Like my wife is fantastic and you know, we always joke about how I had done just enough work so she could show up. And she was just naive enough that she didn't like when I would just stop talking, she'd be like, “She doesn't feel like talking right now.” Because she just didn't, she didn't know how broken I was. And then I just kept coming back and then eventually I did more work and things were good. Then we had children, we wrecked it all. But anyway, I'm just kidding. They're lovely. Mostly. But, so at that time it was like these, just these, I was, I think I was very like almost, I don't wanna use the word addicted, but there was something in that push pull that was very familiar from my childhood. That just like, you give me a little, I come in and then you do something bad, and then it's, it was just like what I was familiar with, and what I knew, and what I had seen. And it, it didn't matter that, that she was doing bad things, I would still be like, ugh. And then I would stay. Now all my eyes and all my vision and when I look back at things, it's all like through the lens of I have a daughter. And I just hope that I can teach her in a way that she will love and respect herself more than I did at that time. So, that she will leave earlier than I did. Because it's like, I feel like generational trauma, all you can do is just do a little better than what was done for you.

Courtney: I think that's absolutely true. And it sounds like this song reflected your, like inner turmoil, your sort of inner barometer, like a weather system almost. 

Robin: Yeah, even the way the song… Like if you listen to the song, it's just, it's so powerful and, and there's so much anger in it and there's so much angst. It's a raw song.

Like whereas “Brick” is just this depressing and that was part of it, but this was the other part of my relationship, which was this, like just this fire and fire. Like we were both very strong-willed, fiery type people. And I mean, obviously I haven't stopped talking since we hit record. Like I, I can't be with somebody like me. Like Mary is much more even keeled, and much more… like she's makes me kinder and she is a kind person. Of I start yelling, she just looks like a deer in headlights and that- because no one yelled at her, ever. Whereas my family was just like chaos and yelling and being with another person just like me, that's horrible. But when I see Mary's eyes, I see the pain I'm causing and it forces me to be like, “Robin, get your shit together.” 

Courtney: Well, there's also like a big growth for you, a big sense of empathy. And it sounds like the relationship that you're talking about, I mean, you're describing unhappiness, but you're also describing insecurity.

Robin: Oh my God. 

Courtney: And moving away from that changes how you relate to your partner. 

Robin: Yeah, I mean, everything at that time I think was a worth issue for me. Because I, I think sometimes I wouldn't leave because I thought, “Well, I don't know who's gonna love me. I don't know who's gonna, who's gonna be with me and who's gonna show up?” And it did make it even harder — we're talking about being a lesbian in the ‘90s. There was no apps. You had to go to the bar, and then you had to walk up to somebody and there was like the same 45 people, and there was all these not stereotypes, but like positions in the community. There was like butch and femme and there was like… Now they're just like, I mean like my daughter will come home and just like, “I'm bI, I'm they.” I'm, and I'm just like, “What the fuck are you doing? Pick a point, and be that. And they're just not, that's just not who they are. like the young kids. It's everything we fought for, but I didn't have that. So I was like busy at work, like dropping hints, like, “Do you play softball?” You know, like trying to see if somebody was gay. It's like just wasn't, there was a lot of reasons, even outside of my own insecurities. 

Courtney: Yeah for sure. But I'm gonna tell you right now, like I knew, uh, late 20s, early 30s, mid 30s Robin, and she was a stone cold fox with a lot of like sassiness and funness in her, just like you are today — the exact same. 

Robin: Well, I am an actor.

Courtney: You are an actor. It's true. You can inhabit whatever position you want. 

Robin: Your 20s, I just think it's such an interesting, like, confusing time. Like you're trying to figure out who you are and you're trying to find your purpose and your worth and, and all of those things. And you're one step outta college, but still like partying like a fool, or at least I was, wild, wild woman. And it's, that's a lot. It's a, that's like a soup. It's just a lot of things are happening there. 

Melissa: Yeah, and I feel like when you're in your 20s, you're just trying on so many personalities. Like you know, you're in a bad relationship, but then you're sitting there being like, “Am I the sort of person who just stays in bad relationships?” And then you think about that and then like a month goes by and you're like, “Oh, maybe I am.” And then like something else happens and you're like, “Oh, maybe I'm not the sort of person who stays in bad relationships.” I was always the queen of like, dumping people out of the blue, but it wasn't really out of the blue. It was more just like I was having this whole thought process just being like, “I don't think I like this. No, definitely don't like this. Nope, definitely.” But it would just take me like a month to process.

Robin: So you weren't a communicator. You just were, all that was happening in your head and probably not for the other person.

Melissa: Exactly, and so I was just like…  

Robin: So for them they were like, what the fuck? 

Melissa: Yeah, and I'd just be like, “Yeah, do you remember six months ago when you did this thing? Didn't like it. We're over.” 

Robin: I've been thinking about it since then. So…

Melissa: Yeah, I’ve just decided, no. Yeah, and like, you know, in retrospect if I could like go back and just be like, “Oh, you know, I probably should have dumped that guy faster so I could have correlated and grown and learned.” Like I really did know favors for any woman who came after me because they learned nothing. Because I would just, it'd be like…

Robin: You're like the person who had a bad boss and quit and didn't do the exit interview. Everything was fine.

Melissa: Exactly. Yeah, I know sometimes I feel like, like that about when I go to restaurants. And if I don't put something on Yelp where I'm like, “There was a Band-Aid in my food and they accused me of putting it there.” Am I doing that world of disservice by not mentioning that on Yelp? I'm like, I don't even have a Yelp account. I could start one. 

Robin: I feel like coming out of this podcast, you are going to start one. That's our, that's our growth. 

Melissa: So many opportunities to help improve the world, or at least alert people in your community about potential problems that I, as a very lazy person, don't do. And I feel bad about that. 

Robin: Well, don't, don't label it lazy. Don't label it lazy. Maybe you just are non-confrontational. 

Courtney: You are non-confrontational, that's true. 

Melissa: I am non-confrontational, but I also am kind of lazy.

Melissa: So I'm hearing you tell these stories like you knew there are all these problems, there are all these issues. You're singing “Brick” in the car as you guys are going. How are you still friends with this person? Is this just like ultimate lesbian flex? Because I kind of feel like it is. 

Courtney: And how long were you no contact after the relationship ended, assuming you were?

Robin: I feel like almost none. Like I think we were friends pretty much right away. I was at her wedding. She was at my wedding. 

Courtney: How? 

Robin: I don't know. I think, I do think at the time when I was breaking up with people I thought, I never wanted anyone to hate me, and I still have a bit of that. 

Courtney: I feel like the answer has to be that the breakup is more communicative than men ending relationships are, because wow.

Robin: Yes, there's definitely more talk, I think, as a general rule, I will say, every one of my exes, except my very first girlfriend, was at my wedding. Because it was a party. It was like a, we did like a, you know, we did like a, like… 

Melissa: Everyone in your contact list? 

Robin: Just pretty much. Ee were like, I was like, “Getting married in the Caribbean. You wanna come?: It was like, it's a vacation. You just have to show up for the wedding. It was like 75 people came. It was crazy. But I will say we had an explosive breakup, and it is probably the best breakup. Because on her way out the door, I had a cat named Sam who was the greatest cat in the world, and on her way out the door the movers are there, like all this is happening in front of the movers. She is about to slam the door. And then she says, and “Just so you know,” cause she always told me she hated the cat. “Just so you know, when you weren't home, I held this cat and I loved this cat.” And then, and then a couple hours later, her dad, amazing guy, Nino, like Italian from Queens, shows up with a tray of lasagna, making a plea for his daughter. He said, “Listen,” and he didn't know what happened. He just knew we broke up. And he goes, “Listen, I know she did something wrong. I know,” he goes, “but whatever she did, she could fix it. Think you should go.” And I was just like, “Oh, Nino.” I was like, no. I was like, “Well thanks for the ziti, but I gotta, I am gonna go.”

Melissa: That's one lasagna, wow. It's like can this lasagna possibly make up for a world of trouble?

Robin:  I know, but it was just like that. He came over with a, a tray. It was like amazing. But I honestly, I just think that, I don't know, I think that in a, in like a lesbian relationship, the roles are, they're collapsed. There's a friendship thing that's happening. There's a, a romantic relationship that's happening. And they're all happening at the same time. And I don't define myself by being gay. That's just one aspect of who I am. I would equally say I'm a performer. I would equally say I'm a wife and a mom. It's just one part of who I am. I've never been one who leads with that. But I have always said that I think women are like cats and men are like dogs, and I'm a cat person. I just, I like cats and I understand them and I get them, and in a way that I don't understand men. Like I have some great men friends, but I just, in terms of dating, I can't even understand how the intimacy could take place for me and a, like a heart level and a communication level because I don't get dudes. I would just be like, “What are we doing here?” So I just think that when, and again, like I'm making generalizations, but I'm speaking for me cause I do know that sometimes people get a little sensitive about that. So I just wanna say that I'm not generalizing about all men. I'm just saying that's my take. I have met some men that I connected with, but never on the level that I would with a woman. And I think I never wanted to, there was the aspect of not wanting them to hate me, but then I think I just, there was something about you I loved. And, you know, and today we just talked recently, we just caught up for a couple of hours and we had a connection. And we had a thing, and we have shared history, and I guess I've just never been one to throw it away.

Courtney: I wonder, I don't even know if that's a like a gender specific or a sexual identity specific thing? I think that's a person thing. Like, I find it so hard to stay friends with exes because I find it hard to let go of the level of intimacy. Not even- physically also, but just like someone knew every single thing about me and it's hard to not go back to that place with them.

Robin: Well, it does remain on some levels. It does. I do think that when her and I talk, I talk differently than, you know, because she knows me in a way that, you know, a few people know me. So it's like, I do think that's still there. But there's a boundary and a, and it's not a boundary like, “Oh, I can't cross it.” There's just a, a something that shifts in the relationship where there's like a piece of the thing that's still there, but then you're two different people in two different places now. And it's, you can see how like the J.Lo and the Ben, how they got back together cause there's something doesn't go away. And I do think it helps that I, I left these women, they didn't, you know what I mean?  

Courtney: Yeah, that always makes a difference. If you're not trying to get unrejected, that changes the dynamic.

Robin: I did have a straight girlfriend and she rejected me like just for, for like solid 18 months, and we still talk. 

Courtney: But I'm also a person that. And when I talk about songs that an ex ruined, when I listen to those songs, I go back to that relationship. I go back to that place. Like it transports me instantly. So I think some people maybe experience things in this visceral way. And that's kind of what we've learned talking people so far. Some people, that's their experience with it, and some people it's just like a thing that maybe comes to mind when they hear the song.

Robin: It's just like, “Oh, like I used to live here,” kind of thing? 

Courtney: Yeah, totally. 

Robin: That's interesting.

Melissa: You said that with, uh, the Annie Lennox song, this woman would know when, if it was playing when she got home, that there was trouble afoot. I told this story once before, but I used to live above these women who would play Dido’s “White Flag” over and over and over and over again whenever they were fighting. So was it sort of that situation? Because the song isn't that long, like the Annie Lennox song isn't that long. So like would you just time it for her entry? Oh no, it would be on repeat. It would be on repeat. I mean, I, I will say that I did just really love the song. But it, the angst and the feeling. Like I, I don't think I made the connection that I was playing it cause I was really mad. It was like, “Yeah, no, I'm in the mood for that right now.” And then like, and then repeat. 

Melissa: Wow. And was this like a CD repeat situation? 

Robin: It, it was a CD repeat, it might have been a five disc changer even. And I just had to like, could you do repeat on that or did I just walk over and just play it again, Sam? I'm not sure. 

Courtney: No, you could repeat on those, for sure. 

Melissa: Did you ever hit a record of number of times of repeating that song? Do you have like a number? You're just like 17 times in a row. My neighbors loved me.

Robin: Just my, I know it was a lot. I know it was a lot and I know it was loud and I… 

Melissa: Whoever was living above you is probably going to come on this podcast at some point, being like, “Oh my God, I used to live above this woman and you played Annie Lennox 17 times in a row.

Courtney: And they ruined the song for me. 

Robin: Well, I am a repeater, as a general rule. I just refound, or found for the first time an old Lady Gaga song. And I was picking my daughter up from like, summer camp last summer, and I, she fell asleep in the car, it was like a two and a half hour drive. And I played that fucking song, um, from, it was “You and I,” Lady Gaga, and I played it from the camp to pulling into our parking garage in Brooklyn, two and a half hours.

Robin: And I am telling you, I belted out every word for two and a half hours. I was almost hoarse, and I'm not a singer. 

Melissa: And your daughter was just asleep that whole time? Was she having the weirdest dreams? 

Robin: Well, she was, she was awake for the beginning, singing with me. Passed out, woke up. I mean, I think it's just part for the course in our house. She was like, “Yeah, this, this tracks.” 

Courtney:  That would be actual torture for me. I would be like, I'm gonna need you to let me out of the car now.  

Melissa: I would just slow roll out the door, just fully, just open the door and just go. 

Courtney:Hey. At least it wasn't a Broadway musical though, so. 

Robin: I know, I think I have ruined her though, because she does it too. We, there's this song from a, a Broadway musical from Griffin Matthews, and it's one of those songs that just builds and it's just, it's beautiful. And her and I will in the car will play it and we'll just go, “Are we doing it again?” And so she, and we'll, and we'll both just sit there and play it over and over and over again. So she's, she's got a little of the — nature nurture, who can say? 

Courtney: It's conditioning. One day she'll move away. 

Robin: I broke her. On so many levels. 

Courtney: We're gonna wrap it up on this one. Robin, thank you so much for, first of all, your advice on how we could all be slightly more forgiving in our relationships, and find our inner lesbian. If that's not too offensive to say, but sometimes I want to.

Robin: Not a bit, not to me.

Courtney: And also thank you for breaking the format because it's the more songs, the merrier, quite frankly, around here. It was so great to hear what happens inside your brain. 

Robin: I don't know that it was. I'm telling you, everyone has to come over to Well… Adjusting cause I sound way more sane over there and they're good conversations. Season 2 is coming out in March and it's just gonna be spectacular. We have some really wonderful, wonderful stories. We, we talk to someone who's processing a suicide. Who, uh, like on a 10 year anniversary, still dealing with the question of why we talk about someone who wants to let people in, in relationships, but has walls.We, I mean, just, we had a conversation today about generational trauma around finances. Like the conversations are just, I'm so proud of that podcast and it's just, um, I, I'm just like, I love it so much. Come listen. Come take a listen. I'm more sane over there. I promise. 

Courtney: I'm an avid listener of Well… Adjusting, and I can tell you you should be listening to it. Robin doesm in fact, guide a lot of people through a lot of terrible situations and really difficult conversations. It's worth checking out.

Robin: Oh, thank you. And thank you both for having me. This was a, an absolute blast.