LINKS

Check out Rory Uphold's excellent podcast, Crimes of the Heart.

Here's why we can't and won't stop talking about the Cure.

TRANSCRIPT

Melissa: Hello, I'm Melissa Locker. 

Courtney: And I'm Courtney E. Smith. 

Melissa: And you are listening to Songs My Ex Ruined, the show where we talk about songs that have been ruined by our exes. 

Courtney: This week we welcome a fellow podcaster, Rory Uphold. And she has a really great show, Crimes of the Heart, that is like a soul sister to our podcast in some ways. And I'm really excited that you're here with us this week, Rory.

Rory: That is so exciting, thank you. Also, I love this show. I think it's such a cool concept and we all have at least one song that's been erased, burned out. I mean, I literally, the song that we're about to talk about, I was like, I should just listen to it. Immediately started crying. 

Courtney: Yeah, I'm familiar with that.

Rory: I was like, oh, okay. All right, all right. So I, I wasn't kidding. This song really still hurts. 

Melissa: Oh man. 

Courtney: Please tell us about a song that an ex ruined for you?

Rory: Oh man. It's “Hometown Glory” by Adele.

Melissa: Okay…

Courtney: Wow, okay. I was wondering when Adele would come up, because that's such like a cathartic sort of post-breakup artist. 

Rory: Yes, yes. So, like I said, the second I hear the like piano refrain, I just immediately start crying. The story goes as this: I once upon a time worked in the music industry. I had a record deal when I was like a late teen, early 20s. And this was during the summer, and I had a Summer Jam Six Flags tour that I was on. 

Courtney: Oh my God. Amazing. 

Melissa: Wow. 

Courtney: I'm very jealous. That's very cool. 

Melissa: I have so many questions, but please go on.

Rory: Yeah, so I'm on this tour and I am support for an artist who, I'll just keep him out of it, but I'll say this: he was on the most popular single at the time. Very, very famous female pop singer. And then he also had some singles. And I would open for him at his shows, but like for the Six Flag Summer Jam tour I came on and we had a song together. So that was the context. I was in an on and off relationship from high school till just way, way, way too long with a guy that lived in Chicago. He was an artist. 

Melissa: There's so many red flags already. I can't even.

Courtney: Yeah, I wanna stop you right there and say, what age did you learn to stop dating guys who are in bands or are musicians?

Rory: Ooh, that is. Okay. Way too late. Probably like 28, 29, you know? 

Courtney: No that’s, that’s about right. That’s about right. 

Rory: Yeah, don't get it twisted. I continued to date fuck boys just, they just weren't musical. 

Courtney: Fair. We all have interludes.

Rory: I then found comedy bros. 

Melissa: Oh no.  

Courtney: Oh, those are all fuck boys. Apologies to any comedy bros that have been on this podcast but they'd probably acquiesce. 

Melissa: They know who they are. 

Rory: Terrible. Yeah, so I tell my manager and all the people booking the tour, like, I'm gonna stay with my boyfriend. It's not a problem. And we get really close to the date and something in me thought like I just had a little twinge of doubt, but I ignored it. And you know, I was talking to him all the time. I fly there, and this was going to be the first stop on like a bunch of stops. I land in Chicago. I text my boyfriend,” I've landed, I'll be there.” And he lets me know that that's not going to be happening because he's actually living with his girlfriend. 

Courtney: No, no.

Rory: And I was like, wow, okay. There was two problems, right? One was the personal heartbreak, and the other was just the embarrassment of now I had to tell everyone, and now I needed a place to stay. And that was humiliating. And if you think that this is the worst part of the story, we are just getting started.

Melissa: No. 

Courtney: Oh no, okay.

Rory: A hundred.

Melissa: I’m going to sit it up straight. I was, you know, I was a little sleepy before I didn't have my afternoon coffee, but now I am wide awake. 

Courtney: How old are the two of you when this happened?

Rory: I think I am 21. I mean, I, I had to be able to drink alcohol, so I was 21 maybe. 

Melissa: Yeah, you did have to be able to drink alcohol.

Courtney: Yes, absolutely. 

Rory: Yeah, so, I am in that age range. And I then go to the hotel that one of the three letter big agencies has booked us into. We get there and it's across from a White Castle, and if you know anything about the Midwest, you already know that the neighborhood that we are in is not good. 

Courtney: That's right.

Rory: That is not good. And it is not a hotel. In fact, it's not even a motel. We have been checked into what I can only describe as a crack den. I was scared, and the way that I walked in, I was like, I already look too nice. Like I won't be able to sleep because this is not safe. And I couldn't believe that this is where we were staying, and my inner Karen came out, which is crazy because I was so young but when you're afraid for your life, you will stand up for yourself. By the way, it was not the type of place where like the guy who ran this motel had, you know how cab drivers have plexiglass it? 

Courtney: Sure. 

Melissa: Yeah. 

Rory: This place also had plexiglass. 

Courtney: Oh, that's a bad sign. 

Rory: It's a bad sign, bad sign. So now I am hours in. I want to die. I find a place. Why am I doing this and not my team, my managers? 

Melissa: Right? Like, why are you have to do all of this? 

Rory: I worked with a lot of men, is what I'll just say. 

Courtney: Okay, that tracks, yes. 

Rory: And I was also at a place where I was like, I'm not, I, I just, no. I'm, I'm gonna take control of this situation. Also, this agency had booked in the other talent and the guy, the like one that was famous? He literally stayed in that motel. 

Courtney: Why? 

Rory: I, I don't know. I don't know. It was so crazy. I mean, I guess cause he just wasn't afraid? And because it was closer to the Six Flags, who knows? I went back into Chicago, I was like, um hm. Hell no. So I go back into downtown, and my manager and I are staying there. And by the time we get there, I have enough time to kind of just like crash out and the next day I have my show. Oh man, I guess I'll just, I guess I'll say it because it happened. On the way there, the guy that I on tour with turns to me and in front of an entire sprinter full of men says, “I think that, um, we should fuck so that we have like real chemistry on stage.”

Melissa: The fact that you are not outing every single person involved in this story, you are such a better person than I am because oh my God.

Courtney: You’re almost a saint.

Rory: I just don't want to deal with the fallout. But yeah, so, I don't know how, I mean I guess there was survival instincts. I made a joke and I said, “Oh, I don't think you could handle me.” Which was like kind of cute and sexy, but it was a no. And, I'll never forget it, in the front right seat, his security guard laughed. It was like, “Oh bro, she got you.” And it was like, okay, it was fine. Because if I upset him too much, I'd get kicked off. So there was this like line that I had to walk. And he had refused to rehearse with me. I was already so scared. We pull up and I'm performing in front of 5,000 people. That's the most people I've ever performed in front of. And the last thing this man says to me before we walk on stage is, “Don't fuck up. I can fuck up because they're here to see me. But if you fuck up, you'll ruin the show.” And he walks out on stage. 

Melissa: Wow.

Rory: And I'm backstage like shaking. Shaking. And I'm in tall heels with three pounds of hair extensions. I am so scared, and I wish I could tell you what the show was like. I blacked out, fully blacked out.

Melissa: Fair. 

Rory: And by the time I get back to my hotel, I've had like a small little win, but I've been bottling up the fact that I just went through such a massive betrayal. And I get back to the hotel, and I start drinking. And I tell my manager like, “Hey, let's like get a drink.” And I gave myself alcohol poisoning. 

Melissa: Oh man. 

Rory: To this day I can go to places in downtown Chicago and have deja vu and realize, oh, that was from that night. Like I hit so many spots and I was drinking so much cause I was just like, I think I want to disappear. And the next day I woke up and I was so hungover. It truly was like the most hungover I've ever felt in my life. And at some point I think I needed Gatorade or whatever. When I was finally able to walk, I decided to just walk around downtown Chicago and it was weirdly overcast, which I don't think is normal for Chicago in the summer. And I remember I walked down to the water and I was listening to “Hometown Glory” and just full on crying. Like you know when you are so sad. Oh my gosh, that's making me sad right now. When you're so sad that you just don't even care. You don't care who's looking at you, you don't care if anybody's judging you. You're like, I am in so much pain. Like I can't believe this happened. And knowing that this person was a mere mile away, like I'm in his city, he's with this other woman. I had been lied to. I felt so dumb. And then wanting to know like, what is he doing? Is he thinking about me? Just all of that. And then I found out that my next tour stop in Atlantic City had been canceled and I was going to be stuck in Chicago for like six days.

Courtney: Oh, Jesus. 

Melissa: Wow. 

Courtney: I hate it. 

Rory: It was the actual worst. Okay, but here's where the, it gets good. There was another guy in another band. And I had met him, I don't know, I had met him in L.A. And he was on tour. This guy i is a drummer and…

Melissa: Also a red flag.

Courtney: Yeah, true. 

Rory: I met him once, and we were like messaging back and forth. And he's like, I have some time off. I'm going to like my parents' lake house in West Virginia or Virginia somewhere. And I thought, “You know what? Fuck it. Can't get any worse.” And so I got a plane ticket, landed at the airport, called my best friend. She was like, “Take a shot with me on the phone. I need to hear it so that you…” And she was like, “ITt's gotta be vodka so that he can't smell it.” This is before I had a Xanax prescription, which I don't support abusing, but, you know, at that time I was like, “This is crazy.” And anybody listening is probably like, “Yeah, bitch, this is crazy.” Took a shot of vodka and she was like, “Okay, I believe in you.” And hung up. I got in the car and I truly had like the best weekend, best sex, best time. He was my introduction to like soft BDSM. Ultimately was like the perfect palate cleanser. Chicago man continued to just wreak havoc and, and ruin my, my heart for, for years after that. 

Melissa: Did the girlfriend he was living with ever know he had another girl flying in to meet him?

Rory: Probably, probably. He and I had such a — we had that like young love, really toxic relationship where in my mind I really thought we were like fated to be together. And so I put up with a lot of things that I would never put up with. And my friends, my family, everybody was like, we do not…like, get over this. And I don't know why, but he was just, he was shiny to me. I think because we met as kids and I know how talented he is and I, I fell in love with him and his potential, which is so dangerous, right? Potential is so dangerous. And I didn't know — obviously I knew things were very hurtful. But I thought that because we kept weathering these shitty times, that it meant that we really did love each other and that it was evidence that if we just kept trying — it's like sunk cost effect. If we just kept trying that one day, we would figure it out and then it would all be worth it. 

Courtney: Mm-hmm, magical thinking of your 20s, for sure.

Rory: Dark. Dark. 

Courtney: So, why Adele? Why was that what you went to? And I'm trying to pinpoint what era this would've been. So were you listening on Spotify?Were you listening on a Walkman? 

Rory: I was listening on an iPod. I believe it was Shuffle. 

Melissa: Nice. 

Rory: And it hit, and I think there's something about, like I said, the piano refrain and then obviously just the way that she is singing, like the tonation of the way that she's singing really just struck a chord with me. And even now, like I said, it takes me right back to that place where — this is gonna sound so crazy, but I don't know if anybody else does this. Sometimes when I'm really sad, I think about like what the pain looks like and where it is in my body. 

Courtney: Mm-hmm. I do that in  therapy. I mean, I do. I've been doing it more in real life lately, but yeah.

Rory: Yeah, and it's weird. It's like I hold it in my chest, like kind of below my boobs and I feel it. And that pain really encompasses like so much more than just him. I think that that pain and that song ties to like nothingness, like feeling like I was nothing and that I could so easily be discarded. And I deal with issues of like worthiness, like that's my, you know, we all run those like personal narratives. 

Courtney: That's your core belief? 

Rory: Yes, that's that core belief that like maybe I'm not good enough. What if I'm not good enough? And I think that's like such a moment that is like so solidified and, for whatever reason, bound with that song. And now if I ever need to cry, oh, pop on “Hometown Glory.” Let's fire up Adele.

Melissa: Sort of a random question, but what's the experience of just crying in the streets of Chicago? Like, cause like in New York, people just walk around crying all the time. It's a thing. You're crying. It's true. In the subway, you're crying at Build-A-Bear, you're crying on, you know, Fifth Avenue. Like I have walked entire… 

Courtney: We're  both former New Yorkers, by the way, like, and have cried publicly many times. 

Melissa: Yeah, you just, you know, cry and like no one blinks. Like if you're lucky, someone'll be like, “He's not worth it.: Or you know, just like, “Don't, don't cry here, go cry over there.” You know, that sort of thing.

Rory:  I'm obsessed with that, yeah. 

Courtney: Yeah, what were the folks  at the Midwest like? 

Rory: I remember people staring for sure, but I mean, I had in headphones and truly could not have cared less. I think the headphones is what probably stopped people from asking me if I was okay. But I know I got really concerned looks. I'm imagining they thought someone died, you know? 

Courtney: In a way someone did.

Rory: Yeah, and in a way someone did. 

Courtney: Maybe two people. 

Rory: Yeah, yeah. 

Courtney: Okay, well, you think that this girl that he was with did know about it? And you stayed like on and off involved with this person? Tell us more about what happened 

Rory: Yeah, great, thank you. Because that is actually so not my thing, and I'm not okay with that. Like I'm not okay with knowingly being a side chick. I've, I've never done that to my knowledge, no. So we broke up, didn't speak, and then there were a lot of apologies. This was actually, I would say, the first massive breakup that we had. This was the thing that he and I continued to, to come back to. We're friends now. I have zero interest in that, and I've so outgrown it. And there's something really nice about looking back and being like, “Oof, that is tired.” You know? But he basically was like, “Listen, I have a warm body complex. And I love you and you don't live here. I'm working on it.” And I was like, you need to get help. And he did. 

Melissa: What the fuck is a warm body complex? Sounds like a serial killer thing.

Rory: A warm body complex, meaning he needs to be near a warm body. 

Melissa: Has he considered public transit? I mean, come on. Like there's a lot of ways for that to happen without, you know, cheating on your girlfriend.

Rory: Oh, totally. Look, I'm not gonna defend him here. I think in my mind, I was super hurt. We broke up for a while, and the way that it probably got back on was that he had done some work — not enough work, but some work. And then came back and apologized and I was able to look at that and be like, “Okay, so he's trying, he's changing.” You know, he would buy enough goodwill or whatever, and again, it felt like this person that knew me. And also like I'm nostalgic, we went to boarding school, so we really did kind of grow up together. And it felt like, “Oh, this person is a person who knows the real me.” If you're listening to this, anybody, this is basically the roadmap of what not to ever do.

Courtney: Yeah but I mean, so many people do this in their 20s  and it's not uncommon at all. And it's not uncommon to feel this way at all.

Melissa: Yeah, I feel like those like kind of first loves, those early loves, like they're just so imprinted on you. And it's really hard to escape that. 

Rory: I also feel like I was so influenced by the portrayal of love in media.

Courtney: Yes. 

Melissa: Of course.

Rory: And you see people being awful to each other, and then you see like a grand gesture or whatever and, and then they get back together. And I do look at that relationship with him and go, “I can see how and why I bought into certain things.”

Courtney: Can I say something semi-embarrassing right now? Make an admission? 

Rory: Oh, you can say whatever you want, yeah. 

Melissa: Oh please.

Courtney: This is the embarrassing part. So, I've been binge watching Yellowstone lately. 

Melissa: Oh, MAGA Succession. 

Courtney: Very middle American.  That is embarrassing.

Rory: I know, I love that your embarrassing thing is like, “I'm watching this thing that every American seems to be watching.” 

Courtney: Look, anybody that listens to this knows I'm a snob and they should understand why I'm embarrassed. So… 

Rory: You know what, fair. Fair.

Courtney: I was curious, though, since it is like this most-watched TV show on cable, and this thing that has gotten not a lot of critical attention. And the first two episodes the whole time, I'm just like, “These people, literally all their problems could be solved if they would just go to family therapy together. Like, and if they would admit that their mom dying has caused huge problems in the family.” And then the third episode is about the mom dying. I'm like, “All right, well, at least they're aware, like the showrunner is aware that this is a setup.” But it's made me think as I've continued — that's the really embarrassing part. I've continued to watch it, I'm on season three now. It made me think though about the futility of trying to write drama because this show is so clearly drawing on a Shakespearean tradition, like a King Lear kind of vibe, that the whole point is that people just fuck up and communicate badly. And so I'll never write fiction or drama because it's just too frustrating now. I'm like, “All you would have to do would be,have a conversation and clear this up like a normal human being. All you have to do is act respectful towards people.”

Rory: Yeah, yeah and he wasn’t. But something that you said made me think of this, and I don't know if it matters or not, but he is bipolar and so some of that also affected — and these were like revelations that had happened. Also, like we would break up and I get this weird psychic connection to guys, like after I break up with them. I don't know how to explain it, but like one day I woke up and was like, “Something's wrong with his mom.” And I called him and she had just been diagnosed with cancer. Or like, I would text him and I would be like, “What is happening right now?” And he would be like, “So-and-so is, is the hospital.” He and I had for years, years, like he would text me at a moment and he'd be like, “Are you okay?” And I'd be like, “I just got locked out of my apartment.” You know, weird stuff like that, that did also feel kismet. So yeah, I mean like, we had conversations. I just think that there was a lot of other bullshit clouding things.  

Courtney:  Do you still frame it that way in your mind? Do you think of it as like a psychic connection and kismet now, still with exes? 

Rory: Hm, so my last boyfriend, after we broke up, maybe a couple weeks later, I was looking at Instagram and I saw a photo of this girl that he wasn't dating, and I was like, “Oh my God. That's his next girlfriend.” And I told him and he was like, “You're crazy. I'm still in love with you.” And I was like, “Okay, but yeah, this is her.” And then a month later they were dating. And then on Mother's Day I texted him and I just said, “Hey, happy Mother's Day, LOL.” And later he was like, “You are the second person that knew. I don't know how you knew. Like we had literally found out two days before.” 

Melissa: Wow, so maybe you're psychic?

Rory: Oh, God, I doubt it. 

Courtney: No, I think you're just highly empathetically attuned to people that you care about or people that you know well. 

Melissa: Sure, that may be the case, but do you have any numbers coming to you right now? I just… 

Courtney: Just in case.

Melissa: Just in case.

Rory: Like 9. 1. 1. No…

Melissa: I don't think those are gonna come up in the lottery, but maybe.

Rory: Yeah, you never know. No,, you know how you just get a feeling sometimes you're like, oh, I should, I should call this person, or I should do this thing. Or somebody pops into your mind. It's like that, and then it like locks in. And so I'm gonna call the guy in Chicago Weston, but… 

Melissa: Is his real name Hilton? Sorry. 

Rory: Honestly, not no. But I had this with Weston for forever. Just for years we had this kind of back and forth. And so I do think that's part of it. And also I just, I put up with a lot of mistreatment. You know, I'm one of those women that really learned the hard way. 

Courtney: The reason I asked you that is because you — obviously, it's apparent you put up with mistreatment and relationships. And usually a defense around that is being highly attuned to the other person, and it's a way to appease them and make sure that you stay safe, and also that you stay needed.

Rory: Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah, I'm sure that's part of it. That has to be part of it. I mean, I think what I loved about our dynamic was that he made me feel special. That he would come back to me no matter what. Which obviously relates and like ties into that core terrible belief of like, I'm not good enough. And it's interesting because, you know, today, like in 2023, that would never fly. I've done so much work and I also feel like I'm the person that will take the ticket and ride the ride. Or I used to be. 

Melissa: It's cause of all that time at Six Flags. 

Rory: Yeah, exactly. Just tying it back to that sponsorship, you know? And so I have so many stories and it's kind of like if you put yourself out there a lot, you're bound to get rejected a lot. And I have, you know, the whole “urn your heartbreak into art” vibe and “bad decisions make good stories.” Those were like mantras that I lived by for a really long time, and now I'm kind of like, “prioritize your piece” is more my mantra. And access to me is, worth something. It's totally, totally shifted. But I do think that what you just said is probably spot on. 

Courtney: I'm also not surprised to hear that this guy had some sort untreated or undiagnosed issue because you don't do stuff like this to people if you're well adjusted. Like you just know that that's fucking mean or callous or self-centered. Like so many things, but I find the people that do this kind of stuff, it's sort of out of their control. They are protecting themselves. They are prioritizing themselves, and it's a great way to get crushed. But it is always complicated. Always complicated. 

Rory: Yeah, you know what? That's probably why — sorry. I'm still not over what you said. You're a my new therapist now. 

Courtney: Okay, great. 

Rory: Congratulations. 

Courtney: I mean  this, I get all of this from TikTok therapy, so you know. 

Rory: Oh my gosh. But I think the reason why this song probably slaps so hard still is that it really does tie into how I used to feel. Not all the time, because I walked through the world very confident. Like I said, I would get up in front of all these people. I performed and did tons of things, and I felt good 99 percent of the time, right? Like it's not like I was walking around shy or hating myself. But that 1 percent totally ties into what you said, and I think that's what I feel when I hear the song — of just not being good enough. And also putting up with so much because I wanted to be wanted and I wanted to be loved. Wow. This, this really went a lot deeper than I thought it was gonna go, ladies.

Melissa: Stay tuned. We're just taking a quick break and we'll be right back.

Melissa: Do you miss having Adele? Like do you listen, can you listen to other Adele songs or does it, is all just sort of…?

Rory: I absolutely can. I totally can. It's just that song. 

Melissa: Yeah, cause there are definitely some songs like — I can't remember who I was talking to. I just went and saw the Cure recently and he third song that they played was like my all time favorite song by them. But I can't listen to that song without knowing it's just gonna put me in a mood. Like Capital A, capital M Mood. 

Courtney: Wait, what song? 

Melissa: “A Night Like This”

Courtney: Oh, I love that song.

Melissa: I know it's a great song, but literally every time I hear it I'm just like instantly in like some seriously weird head space.

Rory: Did you go to the bathroom? 

Melissa: No, I listened. I sat there and I, you know, just publicly cried. What else do you do?

Courtney: And then you had to sit through the other two hours of that show? Cause they do like five encores.

Melissa: Two and a half. Yeah, they  did three encores. About 12 songs were the encore. My point is more just that like sometimes these songs, like there's no real reason that that song does that to me. There's no real reason that every time I put it on, I'm instantly transported to this like weird headspace. But I can listen to the rest of the songs and I'm totally fine. It's just like that one. So I was curious about Adele.

Rory: Same, it's just that one. I will tell you something that I do that is really kind of dark and like self-harm-y. I have it on a travel playlist ,and sometimes I listen to it on airplanes. 

Courtney: I mean, there's no place better to cry than on an airplane, honestly. 

Rory: A hundred, a hundred. There's something about — it transports me. I am being transported. I don't know. 

Melissa: I know I was looking at the airplane movie playlist the other day and I was like, “Why would you watch Steel Magnolias on an airplane?”

Courtney: On a plane? Because you wanna cry. 

Melissa: I'm like, come on. Like who put this on there? like the air pressure is gonna make you crazy in the first place and then we're just gonna show you Steel Magnolias and you're gonna be ugly crying in coach. 

Rory: So, wait, do you guys have like anything similar to this or no? 

Melissa: Oh,  sure. 

Courtney: I have so many songs. So this podcast got started because we were talking about the number of songs men have sent to us that were inappropriate. Like just something like where they misused it and were trying to like woo us or something and totally like Charlie/football or whatever. 

Melissa: I think the catalyst may have been when I admitted that two guys, two separate guys, had put Elvis Costello's “I Want You” on two playlists. and somehow men have gotten the idea that just the title is really what it's all about. And no. 

Courtney: Yeah, you can't — if you actually put the whole song on a mix and someone has to listen to it, it's about a, like a serial killer or something. It's about a stalker. It's not romantic. 

Melissa: Yeah, it's not at all. Like the whole song was like, it's not good. That is not a love song, and no one who listens to it at all closely would think it was a love song. It is deeply fucked up. 

Rory: Did you say anything? 

Melissa: No, cause I was like 19 and I was like, “Y'all are idiots, whatever.” I think they were all named Rob or something too, so. 

Courtney: That spurred me to tell her about the guy that put like as the second track on a mixtape to me, Otis Redding’s “Tramp.”

Courtney: And I was just like, what is this mess-? I mean, this is a great song, but what are you trying to say? And why? 

Rory: Wow, so weird. People are so weird. I have a playlist that I constantly curate called Unhinged and “Tramp” would fit right in there because I don't care if it's — I mean, it kind of wouldn't like music-wise but — I really do go for more of like the title and like the hook or whatever, like the ethos of it. And it is a mishmash of everything, but it's, you know, titles like “See You Next Tuesday” or “Tramp” or “I Like It When Hot Guys Cry.” Or “Daddy,” you know, “Daddy.” 

Melissa: I know. I still feel like if someone's gonna make you a playlist, you're going to hyper analyze it. Like you can't put a song like just “Tramp” and thinking, oh it's a great song. She'll clearly recognize it's a great song and that I'm not calling her a tramp.

Rory: No.

Melissa: Just making playlists for people is still — you gotta curate it, you gotta think it through.

Rory: I wish more of my friends made playlists. I only have one friend, his name's Kenny and he's amazing and he still makes playlists. And he still makes like mix tapes for girls and 

Courtney: Aw.

Rory: I know he's the best.

Courtney:  Yeah, I haven't had a guy make me a playlist in a really long time. So, if any of you out there are secretly in love with me, now's your chance. 

Rory: Now's your time. Slide into those DMs or that inbox. 

Courtney: You can find me…on the internet somewhere. Maybe

Rory: Oh my God. I really hope you get a playlist now. 

Melissa: But, um, speaking of sliding into dms, the way that you ended up on the show was that you sent us fan mail.  

Rory: I did. I sent fan mail! 

Melissa: And that is so awesome. 

Rory: I can't remember how I heard about the show, but I saw it in a newsletter and I saw the thumbnail art and was like, this looks cool. And also I’m constantly trying to listen to shows that feel like they're in the same like world, or like maybe we all went to the same high school as my podcast, and so Songs My Ex Ruined feels like, yeah, we, we could have gone in the same limo to prom as Crimes of the Heart, you know? And I listened, and I think the first episode I listened to was maybe with Lane Moore. I can't really remember, although that episode really stands out. Then I thought it was so cool how it became like a political conversation and social commentary and just the format of the show is really unique and special. And I, I think it's such a cool way to get to know people, but then also talk about culture and music and breakups and heartbreaks, which is something that I'm fascinated by, right? 

Courtney: Everything  you just said made me cringe internally 

Rory: Obsessed! 

Courtney: Like I am completely caustic and sarcastic at this point about love, because I think I now believe kind of the opposite of that. Like, yes, you can continue doing the same thing and signing yourself up for heartbreak. But you could also be spending that time working on yourself, changing yourself so that your patterns aren't the same and you don't get the same outcome without just relying on, you know, another person to regulate you.

Rory:  Do you believe in the one or do you believe in like ones, or what's your stance on that? 

Courtney: No, I don't  think so. I think there are plenty of people that could be compatible. Like if maybe half the population is well adjusted, and then if you are not well adjusted, you find yourself not attracted to those people. So, you can keep getting into these disastrous relationships, or you can work on yourself to become more well adjusted and more secure and able to like properly manage a relationship. That's really the hard trick, I think, is not getting into it, but managing it and keeping it going. And I'm not great at that, I never have been. That's why it's something I'm working on.

Rory: I mean, I agree with everything you said. I think I might still be more hopeful. And I got a little fucked by my parents. I mean, they're happily married still. 

Melissa: How dare they? How dare they? That's just rude. 

Courtney: So rude.

Rory: I know. Honestly, I've been, I've like looked at my parents before and been like, “You do know that I'm in comedy, right? Like, this is really hard for my brand. Your happiness and well adjustedness is very hard for me to process.” 

Courtney: It's really not…funny. 

Rory: Yes. Well, I think what's interesting is that I had this kind of unrealistic expectation. And I think that's how I, I got hurt a lot of the time. But I also think it's one of the things that drives me to try and continue to find what it is that they have.

Courtney: So are you doing that via podcasting these days, now? Like working through other people's relationships a little bit?

Rory: A little bit. I'm always the friend that people go to to talk about relationships. And also I am really sex positive and have always been like super open to talk about kind of whatever. And there's really nothing I haven't tried. And I've always been really bothered by the fact that women don't always seem super comfortable talking about female pleasure. Like we, we are sexualized to the nth degree. But weirdly, female pleasure is something that is shameful for a lot of people. 

Courtney: Yes. 

Rory: So, that's like what I love to, to talk about. I'm not trying to solicit dates on my podcast, although I probably should try to do that. That does seem like a smarter, cause the apps are trash, man. 

Courtney: The apps are trash. It could present content also. One never knows.

Rory: I know. 

Melissa: Have you guys seen the TikTok of, there's that guy who asked people how much money they make and what they do? And there's this woman who's like, “I make $350,000 a year.” “What do you do?” “I sell feet pics.” That is my new goal.

Rory: It's actually a lot harder than you think. 

Melissa:  Is it? That's disappointing. I mean just like foot upkeep wise? Or just garnering an audience?

Rory:. Only Fans wise, I think they're — not to be the fucking bummer, why couldn't I have just gone with it? 

Courtney: No, no. Let's get real. 

Melissa: No, no, that's fine. Rain on my parade. Go ahead. 

Courtney: Let's talk  about the influencer marketplace for feet, because… 

Rory: Well, from my friends that are sex workers, I think they make the majority of their money messaging they're like subscribers. Like that's how they make the majority of their money, at least on like Only Fans. Or kind of with paywall, like pay-per-view type content. I mean that they're shooting it and they can repackage it and resell it. So like, I guess technically that is quote-unquote easier. But there's, I mean, in a very similar way, it's like deciding you're going to be an influencer. And it might look easy, but like building all of that, I think is a lot harder. And you're really beholden to these people who subscribe and then feel like they are entitled to you kind of all the time. 

Courtney: Yeah, that's the part I could not do is the, the demanding part where they want special content for extra money or they just want your attention whenever they want it. That would drive me nuts.

Melissa: Couldn’t you just use AI at this point though? 

Rory: Smart!

Melissa:  AI feet pics.

Courtney: There is a ChatGPT argument to be made there. Doesn't this also sound a lot like podcasting? 

Rory: Yeah, it kind of does. Kind of does do. Are you guys on Wiki Feet? I had myself taken off of Wiki Feet. 

Courtney: I don't know. I'm not really gonna find out.

Rory: Okay.

Courtney: I’m cool if you like my feet.

Melissa: I have a  friend who's an actor and I found out, being the good friend that I am, I would frequently Google whether there are feet pics of her. 

Rory: God, that is so nice of you. 

Melissa: Yeah. And you know, we realized she had really made it when there were like Instagram accounts about her feet. She's probably listening to this and just saying, I haven't Googled it recently.

Rory: I emailed them and I asked them to take me off, and thankfully they did. I don't know. The thing is, is like I'm totally down with people that have like foot kinks or foot fetishes. I just don't love the idea that you're compiling photos of my feet. But then people are rating. 

Melissa: Well, on that note…

Rory: I know I was like, I feel very exposed after this conversation. We really dove into Wiki Feet.

Courtney: We want to hear from you about your podcast. Tell us a little bit about how it came together and where people can find you. 

Rory: Oh, well, if you enjoyed this episode and the story I shared, it is definitely part of the reason why I started my podcast. It's one of a myriad of embarrassing heartbreaks that I have endured this time on Earth. And like I said, I'm so fascinated by just why we continue to get into relationships and also try to make people feel less alone. You know, I think the crazy thing is we all walk around thinking this terrible thing happened to me and I'm the only one. Or this shameful thing happened while we were having sex, or I got broken up in this way, and gosh, I'm such a freak. And then you share it and realize like, oh no, everybody has a story that's very similar. I mean, it's kind of like the ethos of this show. We all have these experiences and these songs that are really painful for similar but different reasons. So I've always wanted to have a love and dating podcast, but I wanted to do something different in the space. I didn't want it to just be an interview show, and I also didn't want interviewees or guests to feel like they had to come on and divulge their personal life. So, I get these anonymous stories, turn them into true crime reenactments, and then my guests and I get to listen to them and discuss them. And so far it's led to these really kind of frank, honest conversations about sex, sexuality, heartbreak, dating preferences, just kind of all of it. So that's how the show started. You can find it wherever you find podcasts. It's called Crimes of the Heart. You could also just Google Rory Uphold. I feel like it'll pop up but…

Courtney: We'll put a link in our show notes and if you need it, you can find it.

Rory: Honestly, that would be easier. Just go below.