Rozzi calls this a common story, in which a medium ugly man rises up to win her heart only to unceremoniously leave her while gaslighting her about it. And while all of that was a bummer summer that ruined Natalie Imbruglia’s “Torn” for her, it’s the revenge she got that is the real story.
Links:
Get the books mentioned in this episode.
About that time Melissa interviewed Duran Duran for the Guardian.
Courtney talked about women songwriters on The Greatest Song Ever Sung (Poorly) podcast.
And the deluxe version of Rozzi’s Berry is out now.
Show Highlights:
00:27: Rozzi’s story of a summer love that happened so fast
03:41: Turning heartbreak into a work of art
07:18: The time a medium ugly man pulled this on Courtney too (it is an epidemic)
13:12: “June” and “How’d You Learn to Lie Like That”
17:40: The only thing from the past we’re bummed we missed out on
Transcript:
Melissa: Hello, I’m Melissa Locker.
Courtney: And I’m Courtney E. Smith.
Melissa: And we are here to talk about Songs My Ex Ruined, on the show where we talk about songs that have been ruined by our exes.
Courtney: Today our guest is the extraordinary singer/songwriter Rozzi.
Melissa: So Rozzi, thank you for coming on to Songs My Ex Ruined. What song has been ruined for you?
Rozzi: I probably could come up with a lot of options, but my favorite one that came to me immediately was “Torn” by Natalie Imbruglia. It’s just devastating that it’s association now- how dare this person associate with this song? Cause I love that song. But it’s been completely ruined. Yeah, it’s over for me.
Courtney: Please tell us what happened. Give us the whole circumstance, the details, the narrative.
Rozzi: You know, I feel like this is actually a fairly common story. Especially, I noticed, for women dating men. You meet some really average man, and you don’t really think much of it. You know, you’re like, “I’m unfazed by you. I’m not nervous, I’m not anything.” And it doesn’t even cross your mind that you could ever be attracted to them. And then slowly… it’s very mysterious. This average man begins to almost look different. Like they just take on a whole new- it’s, it’s a mystery, however they do that to us. I don’t know. But it was my best friend’s birthday, and her other best friend knew this man who had a house in the Hamptons that said, he said we could come for her birthday. And she just wanted it low key, just the three of us. But he, of course, would have to be there because it’s his house that we were crashing. So he picked me up from the train station, and I didn’t even see him. He could, I mean, I’m not trying to be mean, but he just was cardboard. He might as well have just like been the wall. And then, I remember the first time that like any laughter occurred, really, was when he put on “Torn” by Natalie Imbruglia and proceeded to know every word.
Courtney: Oh!
Rozzi: And was a massive fan, and I thought that was funny. I was like, oh, that’s so crazy. I mean, I hadn’t heard that song in a while at the time.
Melissa: Wow.
Rozzi: It was funny. I didn’t think much of it at the time. I got there on like a Friday, and by Sunday I was like, “Are we in love?” It was a very mysterious, I was like,” Oh, are we, is this my husband,” right? And then, of course, the song is still safe. The song, if anything, just has sweet memories at the time, and we go on to have a sort of whirlwind, we’re obsessed with each other, hanging out all the time. And I’m sure this is, unfortunately, another very common story that I’ve heard a lot. Suddenly things just got a little…weird. You’re like, “What’s happened?”
Courtney: Mm-hmm.
Rozzi: You tell yourself, “They’re so busy.” Or they’re just like, you know, “I’m on tour and they don’t know what that’s like and so they’re uncomfortable, they’re just nervous.” Or that, like school’s going back and we know people in school. I don’t know. Just making up crazy excuses.
Courtney: Oh yeah, I’ve been there, I’ve done that.
Rozzi: Yeah, of course, the truth is they hate you, and like you just don’t wanna accept it or admit it. Um, and he did a very like slow fade on me, like a slow ghost on me, after three very intense months of just kind of extreme closeness. And I remember talking to him about it. I was like, “If something’s changed, that’s totally fine. You’re not entitled… I don’t, I don’t- you’re completely entitled to change how you feel. Like I would never be mad at you.” And he just looked me in the eyes and was like, “Nothing’s changed, everything’s good.” And then proceeded to continue to be weird until the point where I just had to kind of give up cause it was obvious that something had changed, and he was just so wouldn’t tell me. And then I found out that over the course of the last month that we had been seeing each other and dating, he got back together with his married ex-girlfriend.
Courtney: I knew that was where this was going. Knew it.
Melissa: Wow.
Courtney: Have been there, have done that, have written the book. Yes.
Rozzi: Ah, I was like, whoa. That is another life, that level- I wrote, I actually wrote a song about it. It’s called “How’d You Learn to Lie Like That.” Cause lit- I mean, it’s a very literal title. I was just like, “How? That was impressive. Like you just so confidently lied to my face.” “Torn,” amazingly, that song is like perfect for the story. I mean, like the lyrics are, I’m blanking on some of them right now, but they’re quite similar. They’re like, this thing died and it’s not there anymore.
Courtney: Yeah, well, also the lyrics about vulnerability, this sort of like lying naked in the storm vibe is very much after you, how you feel after someone pulls that kind of bullshit on you.
Rozzi: Exactly, devastating and I’m so glad it happened because I’ve gone onto much greener pastures and I’m much happier now. But I do miss the song. That song is a loss. I have to mourn that.
Courtney: I mean, that song is a loss.
Melissa: Do you miss the song more than you missed the Hamptons house though?
Courtney: Ooh.
Rozzi: I, oh the Hampton’s house was really good. The Hampton’s house was really good.
Melissa: I know. Did you, did you guys at least break up like after summer?
Rozzi: Yes, I got to go to the house for like 4th of July. Yeah, totally.
Melissa: Okay, okay, so you got what you needed out of the relationship and that is good.
Rozzi: Yeah, it was a summer romance. It was the right season for us, really.
Courtney: Yeah, first of all, there’s a meme about this, and I love it, on TikTok, the, what is it? Imagine if I had to share my life with a medium ugly man. And that’s how I think of these guys. The guys that are like wallpaper, medium ugly men. Like they’re fine, but they’re unremarkable.
Rozzi: So unbelievable what happens in the brain. Like I actually feel like it’s not studied enough, which would make sense, cause I feel like people ignore the female experience very often. I’m sure there’s some simple explanation about like that’s what love is, but I’m just like, there seems to be this incredible trend of beautiful, interesting, funny, smart women sobbing over, just like you said, a medium ugly piece of cardboard. I’m not trying to be a huge bitch, but it’s just sometimes I’m like, “What?” It just makes no sense.
Courtney: Yeah. Why? Mm mm-hmm.
Melissa: But he, he’s a piece of cardboard with a Hamptons house. Just gonna…
Courtney: Ugh, the Hamptons is not that great. I’m just gonna say it. It’s not worth like giving up, it’s not worth not having Natalie Imbruglia’s “Torn” forever. Sorry, Hamptons.
Rozzi: True. I know, I know.
Courtney: Because that’s a great pop song!
Rozzi: It’s such a good pop song.
Melissa: It is. But I do wonder how many people have stayed in relationships they didn’t really wanna be in because of like vacation houses.
Rozzi: The real, real estate. Yeah, totally.
Melissa: It’s like the real estate, man. You can’t just walk out.
Rozzi: It’s, it’s a Sex and the City plot line, I believe. Actually that’s Samantha…
Courtney: Yes.
Rozzi: …wishes he had stayed with Richard for the house.
Courtney: Yes.
Rozzi: Listen, a house is a big deal. If you can live in a great house, that’s a big deal.
Courtney: I don’t know dudes, I’m gonna have to say staying with someone for their real estate is pretty emotionally immature. Go to therapy.
Rozzi: I agree with you. I’m kidding. I agree, I agree. It’s not worth it. No, no, it’s definitely better to be deeply loved and appreciated and told the truth to. Which I, I now can attest, is much, much better than that house. So, yeah.
Courtney: I would imagine you now pla- place a premium on being told the truth to you in your relationships.
Rozzi: I do. I dated idiots in the past. I’ve had my share of heartbreak. I’ve had my share of disappointment, but it was the first time I had been lied to in the face like that. Like a direct question, lie response. Like I just had never really felt that before. And it’s a trip. It’s scary. Actually was very naive. I thought, at least it would’ve been couched with a lot more gray area.
Courtney: Yeah.
Rozzi: But it wasn’t. It was quite literal.
Courtney: Should I tell you my story of the time this happened to me?
Rozzi: Yes.
Melissa: Yes, please.
Rozzi: Please.
Courtney: It was a guy in a band and I wrote about it, and there’s an essay about it in my book, Record Collecting for Girls. I didn’t name him then, I’m not gonna name him now because the other woman in this story? They ultimately got married and I don’t know if she knows about any of this. So, I don’t want to be the one to tell her. That’s not my job.
Rozzi: Yeah.
Melissa: Um, can you please put this in the chat later? Thank you.
Courtney: Like this person who was in a band and a coworker set us up. And they were touring and their band was getting bigger and bigger at the time that this happened. And there was one night that- there was a lot of subtle flirtation, but we lived on different coasts. And so it was like we saw each other when his band came to town, right? And this one night, finally, we ended up making out after the show. And then I texted him and I was like, “Oh, you’re coming back for these dates in a couple of months, so why don’t we try going on a date instead of just hanging out at 2 a.m. in various places in New York City?” And he was like, “Oh, I can’t, I thought that our mutual friend would’ve told you. I have a girlfriend.” And I was like, “I thought you would’ve told me. Also, we’re done talking now, forever.” First of all, why would that be our friend’s job? Second of all, why would you let any of that happen if you knew this was the case?
Melissa: Oh god, people are the worst.
Rozzi: That’s like the thing that kills me that happens so frequently is this, like they talk to you like you’re crazy for thinking that. They’re like, “Whoa, just cause we’ve been making out for months and talking every day does not mean that I should go on a date with you, crazy.”
Courtney: It’s a completely realistic expectation! Everything about that — I did not feel crazy. I felt like he was an asshole. And I still don’t listen to his band.
Melissa: Amen to that. Yes.
Rozzi: Tell me who it is, I, I’ll also boycott. Yeah, yeah.
Melissa: That sort of behavior made so much more sense in like the world of arranged marriages or like Regency romances or something. But now it’s like, it takes two seconds to send a text message. Just be like, “Oh hey, before we make out again, by the way, I actually have a girlfriend.”
Courtney: Yeah, or don’t get yourself into that. You’re dating somebody. Even if you’re trying to decide. You don’t need to add everybody to the mix. Be up front with your life.
Rozzi: Exactly. Communication, it’s quite simple!
Melissa: So Rozzi, did you just write this song, and then just send it to him, and then block his number?
Rozzi: Wow, you know what, no. Maybe that’s what I should have done. The most petty thing I did is this: When his friends witnessed his bad behavior to me, and he clearly felt like he was getting in trouble. But not when I asked him about it, not when he knew what was going on in his own heart and head, but one got exposed. I think like we were all at the same social gathering and he was just, everyone was like, “Bro, you’re being horrendous to this person.” To, to me, basically. He wrote me this long text that was a whole lot of nothing. Like it was just like, he didn’t admit any, he didn’t tell me about the girl, like it was just fluff. And it happened to be, correct me if, if either of you know it, I think it was Rosh Hashanah, and I threw it back and said “Shanah tovah,” because that means like happy new year. Again, I’m not, I’m half Jewish, I’m not really practicing. But that was petty of me, cause I was just like,”You know what? Shanah tovah! I’m not even gonna.” He was Jewish. It just was like a, “Peace.” But then I felt kinda, ironically, I felt bad later, cause honestly, I didn’t wanna be a weight in his life. I was like, “This happened. I’m in pain. That’s something I can deal with, but I’m not really interested in being like a dark spot in someone’s mind like that, that just feels like a weight on my chest.” So, I wrote him this letter.
Melissa: That sounds very mature. Far more mature than me.
Rozzi: It was very mature, thank you. I mean, yeah, I wrote him a letter just being like, “I don’t really understand.” Cause I still hadn’t known the full story yet. And I was like, “And maybe someday I will, but I just want you to know I don’t hate you. It’s all good, like, I wish you the best,” kind of letter. Um, and then every time he ever texted me since, I just never responded. And so in terms of the songs, I don’t know if he knows. I know that he really didn’t want me to write any songs about him. He had been explicit about that, which I always thought was like, “What? Of course I’m gonna write songs about you. Have you met me?” But kinda felt like just the writing in and of itself was some significant revenge.
Melissa: Yeah, and it’s not like an NDA. You’re, you know, just like write a song.
Rozzi: Yeah, how dare you.
Courtney: That idea gets into something that I’ve been thinking about for a long time. And it is, to me, it is a huge part of the problem of the over-representation of men as songwriters and producers.
Rozzi: Mm, yeah.
Courtney: Where a lot of the biggest love songs we have and the biggest breakup songs we have are some guy writing about a girl, and that really centers the conversation and our emotional skills around breakups on men’s point of view because we just don’t hear from women as frequently. It doesn’t matter that they’re big women pop stars. It matters that there are so many less of them across all genres.
Melissa: That’s why I also feel, though, that in your next concert, you need to get up on stage and you needed to perform “Torn.” And you need to tell people the story and just be all like, “I am reclaiming.” You need to reclaim it.
Rozzi: Ah, that’s a great idea. Yes, oh my God, that’s a great idea. I love, that’s hilarious. I will do that.
Melissa: Your therapist would approve, I’m sure.
Rozzi: My therapist would definitely approve.
Melissa: Because, like, why should that song, did you lose it in the divorce? Come on, take it back.
Rozzi: Exactly, I should take it back.
Melissa: Reclaim that song. You get up on stage, you say you tell the audience, “I almost lost this song in a breakup, but it’s, it’s mine again.”
Rozzi: It’s back.
Courtney: Yeah, Natalie Imbruglia would want that for you.
Rozzi: Yeah, she really would. You guys have such a good idea for a podcast in, with this. Because I feel like, I never thought about it this way, but as soon as I saw the concept, I was like, oh, ‘Torn.'” I have that. You know, um, it was just right there, but I’d never considered it. And frankly, I have to say, it has gotten me talking in more detail about my muses than I ever have in my life. I’ve never shared this much personal information. I don’t think. So, it’s really, it’s, uh, it’s a great idea.
Courtney: Tell us about the song that this moment inspired you to write? And are there any overt hints that it is about this person in the lyrics?
Rozzi: I wrote a couple songs about it, and the other one there is that song is called “June.” You know, because it was a summer romance, it’s in reference to the Hamptons house. So, what happened with that song, which was interesting, was I wrote the verse pre-chorus, I wrote before we had ended things when it was still a little like unclear and I was just like feeling a, a weather shift, but I didn’t know for sure. And then I wrote the bridge after I had all the information. And so the bridge, I did purposely get a little meaner in there. I mentioned the Springs, which is where the Hamptons house was. I mentioned rosé that we drank. Oh, I mentioned a really specific detail, the bridge of something about how he was actually back with his ex-girlfriend, that girl he just forgot to tell me about. He, he brought her like, like a few weeks later to this wedding.
Courtney: Rude, so rude.
Rozzi: It was rude. It was like a 40 person wedding. I was like, “Bro, just do we need to?” But it was a good lyric. Yes, he I’m glad I appreciate it. That such a good lyric. Yeah, yeah. Wow. And then the other one I mentioned, “How’d You Learn to Lie Like That,” that one was more like, that was right after I knew things were over. And that was when I was just like in the fog of confusion, I think. “June” is when I had a little bit of distance with that bridge. It was like I could just see it for what it was. “How’d You Learn to Lie Like That” is like when you’re in the depths of what the fuck just happened, you know? Like that, that feeling.
Melissa: Do you think that your song “How’d You Learn to Lie Like That” has been sent to people, like when they’re in like a middle of a relationship?
Rozzi: Yeah.
Melissa: Do you feel like you wrote that song that people are sending just being like, “Fuck you. Here’s a song.”
Rozzi: Definitely, I mean, I’ve, I’ve been told that for sure. That people are like, you know, I needed this song, or I sent it to my friend when this is happening. Which is always a mixed, which is like, you know,I feel bad that that’s how they feel, but I love the connection that we share. Like a, the stranger and I could be feeling the exact same way is always very cozy to me. I love that feeling.
Courtney: There’s something so comforting about that, right? Like the idea of tapping into a universal experience with your song writing.
Rozzi: Definitely, yeah. It’s, for me, it’s like I always felt that way as a listener when like Stevie Nicks says something that I feel exactly, I feel so much less alone.
Courtney: Yeah.
Rozzi: But it’s like on a whole ‘nother level when you write the song. I have this song called “Uphill Battle” that’s basically just like addressing a lot of my flaws. And I’ve had people tattoo the lyrics on their body. And that has been this incredibly comforting, like you said, experience because I’m like, “Oh, if you guys are relating this hard, I must not be alone in these like self-doubts.” So, yes, it’s a mixed bag cause I don’t want anyone to have that experience. But it’s nice to connect when they do.
Melissa: Do you think you’ve written a song that has been ruined by someone’s ex?
Rozzi: Hmm, yes, I actually know I have. I have a friend who is a brilliant filmmaker and actress, and she reached out to me blind, like over social media, because she wanted me to sing a song for this short film she directed and starred in. Because her ex had sent her “Joshua Tree,” one of my songs. To be fair, they seem to be on somewhat friendly terms, so I’m not sure how, how ruined it was for the gal that sent it to her, but that was a hot point for them, so. Awesome. I’m flattered by it, I love it. If it worked for Natalie, that’s great.
Courtney: Right there in somebody’s relationship.
Rozzi: Exactly, I’m involved, yeah.
Melissa: Speaking of being involved in someone’s relationship, I understand you were on tour with Duran Duran.
Rozzi: Yes, I played one show with them, which was incredible, in in London at Hyde Park this summer. And it was an absolute dream come true. It was really fun. It was my first show in London, and I got to play this just like massive, amazing main stage before Laura Mvula and Nile Rogers and Duran, and I just felt like, what amazing company. I was honored to be there. It’s really fun.
Melissa: Did any of them ask about me?
Rozzi: They all asked about you. They all are desperate to know more, yeah.
Melissa: Oh, that’s amazing, thank God they haven’t forgotten me yet.
Courtney: Yeah, Melissa, I think we need to have a conversation about which songs you’ve ruined for various members of Duran Duran.
Rozzi: Yes!
Melissa: That is such a great question. Don’t wanna admit anything about Seven and the Ragged Tiger, but that could be a ragged tiger. I don’t know what that says about me. I dunno what a ragged tiger means. Probably, it probably means cocaine and I don’t actually know, but I feel like it’s like a 1970s cocaine reference that I will never understand.
Rozzi: Yeah, we could never.
Melissa: I should have asked Simon Le Bon when I had the chance.
Rozzi: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Courtney: I still can’t believe I missed Quaaludes completely. It seems like a huge experience gap.
Melissa: I know they worked so well for, Joan Didion wrote an entire book about ’em, like, they must have been good.
Courtney: Must have been amazing.
Rozzi: It must have been so good, I know. We have like spliced stuff now. It’s…
Melissa: Yeah, you can have Fentanyl, I know. I’m like, where’s the 1970s Quaaludes?
Courtney: That all feels too out of control for me. If housewives aren’t doing it, yeah, I don’t know.
Rozzi: Uhuh, exactly, exactly, yeah.
Melissa: Valley of the Dolls could not be written these days cause it would just be like…
Rozzi: I was just gonna say, it would be like…
Melissa: Yeah, no, it’d just be, “Oh, they were laced with fentanyl. They all died. It was sad.”
Courtney: Yeah.
Rozzi: Yeah. How’s it…
Melissa: End of story. Hmm, the book, the book is four pages long, yeah.
Rozzi: Unless it was all a bunch of acid, and they are all just like elated and tripping and seeing incredibly, you know, that could be a different reality for that.
Courtney: That would be a different trip.
Melissa: Yeah, it’d be like the Microdosing Housewives.
Courtney: Oh yeah, exactly. Mushrooms, I think I could see them being on mushrooms.
Rozzi: Definitely.
Melissa: Those are all natural. I don’t think they’ve been laced yet. That could be good.
Courtney: That’s a good one. You can just put tea apparently and drink the tea and eat the mushrooms.
Rozzi: Or chocolate. I feel like those ladies love chocolate. Yeah, delicious.
Melissa: Yeah. Rozzi, so where can people find you? What are you working on now? How do we stalk you online, if not, in real life?
Courtney: Appropriately, not creepily.
Rozzi: Yeah, real life is harder. I’m a pretty fast walker, if I do say so myself. But online, all my social handles are @thisisrozzi, R-O-Z-Z-I. And my Spotify, iTunes, whatever, Apple Music is all just Rozzi, R-O-Z-Z-I. And deluxe version of my album comes out. It’s part one, which is already out, and part two, which is already out, combined, plus four new songs. And then just stalk me on all the socials. I’ll always write back, if any of you out there need a song for a liar, I have it for you.
Courtney: She has one. Also, we all need to follow her Instagram. We’re going to expect to see a post when you reclaim “Torn” for your own. Just a snippet from the live show.
Rozzi: Definitely, that’s genius. I love that idea. That’s such a good idea. Take it back.
Melissa: Yes, take it back. Thank you so much for stopping by and telling us about a song your ex ruined. But you know what? That song’s not gonna be ruined anymore. It’s yours again.
Rozzi: Thank you guys so much. That was so much fun. Thank you for having me.
Courtney: Thanks for joining us for another episode of Songs My Ex Ruined. If you’re enjoying the podcast, give us a review or rating on your favorite app and it will really help. And hey, subscribe to get new episodes as soon as they drop songs.
Melissa: My Ex Ruined is a production of Nevermind Media. Executive Producers are Melissa Locker and Courtney E. Smith. Produced and edited by Stephanie Aguilar. Sound design theme song by Madeline McCormick. Artwork by Sophie Locker. Additional production support from Casey, Steve, Archer, Beemo, Newton, and all the other good dogs and cats out there.
