Sometimes, we ruin a song for ourselves. Those songs we play on repeat ad infinitum after a breakup — sometimes to soothe ourselves and sometimes, like Upsahl, to help ourselves feel it all. Music is great for this, because the right song can have the effect on your brain. It can let the feelings out, it can activate the things you've been pushing down. But, as singer/songwriter Upsahl warns us, you can take it too far.

LINKS

Listen to Upsahl's latest EP, Sagittarius.

And read the interview on Rolling Stone with her about it.

Her spring 2023 tour is on sale now!

TRANSCRIPT

Melissa: Hello, I'm Melissa Locker. 

Courtney: And I'm Courtney E. Smith 

Melissa: And you are listening to Songs My Ex Ruined, the show where we talk about songs have been ruined by our exes. 

Courtney: Today we have the wonderful, amazing musician Upsahl with us. We're so excited. 

Upsahl: Thanks. 

Courtney: And we don't really mess around on this podcast. We get right to the most important question.

Upsahl: I love it. 

Courtney: Tell us about a song that an ex has ruined for you? 

Upsahl: I have to say I'm so stoked to be a part of this. I've been wanting to like talk about this forever, so like, thank you guys for giving me this space to do it. It's so sick. 

Melissa:  Oh, that's great. This feels so juicy already.  

Courtney: I know, I'm very excited already.

Upsahl: Right. There's tea! I think a song my ex ruined for me has always been, and probably will always be, “High and Dry” by Radiohead.

The song really has nothing to do with like a relationship, really. But I feel like certain songs you just like associate with parts of your life or like certain moments and that song was a big part of that. And so it was ruined, by an ex. But I found a way. I think what's fun is I found a way to like love that song again cause Radiohead is like my favorite band. So it was a self-care journey to listen to that song again for sure. 

Melissa: That's good cause I feel like so many of the songs get ruined, like they're from a mediocre artist anyway. You're like, I'll be fine if I never hear a song from, you know, Natalie Imbruglia again like, whatever. But Radiohead would be a huge loss.

Upsahl: It was an L, I know. like I was going through a breakup in that song. Like I would hear like the guitar come in and be like, “Absolutely the fuck not,” like sobbing already. And so I was like, ‘Whatever, we're gonna take a break from Radiohead even though they're my favorite band.” And then as I started to like heal or whatever, like move on, I would start like playing it whenever I was feeling like really happy and so I could like re-trick my brain into like associating it with like, cool shit. And it worked. I was listening to it this morning before this podcast. It was great.

Courtney: Okay, that is such a good hack. Like, honestly, this weird synchronicity to you saying that by the way, because I've been doing that. Um, I'm like going through, uh, a breakup and I've been in like the worst part of it. And I had to like retrain my brain to stop getting into the angry cycles. And I started doing like, “Okay, no. He's a good person. If he's not a good person, I at least hope he's doing well.” 

Upsahl: Love. 

Courtney: “If he's not doing well, I at least hope he's using this time to figure out like how to have a conversation with me because we need to have one.” 

Upsahl: Tea. 

Courtney: “We'll have a talk as soon as the time is right.” and then like let the thought go. I can't believe I'm as old as I am and I didn't know you can like retrain your brain that way to just like stop these negative thought loops. You don't have to wallow in it. You don't have to exist in it. You don't have to be mad all the time. 

Upsahl: A hundred percent.

Courtney:  I love that you did that with a song though, because that is like, I've never been able to really, truly, fully reclaim a song after a breakup. Especially ones where, it sounds like what you're saying is you played it for yourself as kind of like a maudlin, sad song after the relationship ended?

Upsahl: Totally, that was like my, like, “I miss him. Like I'm gonna cry in my car and like drive down PCH and like be sad about my life.” Like that was that song for me.

Melissa: Oh no, you can't cry on the PCH. The tears will like [blur your vision?]. And you end up like off a cliff in Malibu. That's terrible.

Upsahl: Like literally though, right? But I feel like there is something so like healthy about that too, in a way of like- it depends on like who you are, how you process emotions. For me, like I am really good at like suppressing emotions, and so when I would like feel like it was the end of the day. I like felt a little mental breakdown coming. I would be like, “Let's just full send this shit. Like I'm gonna put this song on. I'm gonna cry. Like I wanna just like feel everything.” And so it was kind of like a catalyst for like all those emotions. But then it became something that was like low key like triggering. So I had to be like stop while I was like healing or whatever. And then what you're saying, like when you recognize like thought patterns, you're like, oh, like this is like triggering a thought in my brain of like, “Oh, like I'm angry at my ex for X, Y, and Z.” But once you're able to be like, okay, like, “Let's like reel it back. Let's talk ourselves through this and like move on.” Like, I love it. 

Melissa: So I feel like we got a little bit ahead of ourselves and I would love to go back and have you tell us a little bit like how old you were, where you were living. Like tell us about this relationship? 

Upsahl: Hmm. I wasn't- I wrote like a whole album about it cause I thought it was like the end of the world when it ended because I- it was like my first like, love. I feel like that's always like, hits you so hard. And we like, grew up together. Like this person was such a big part of my life and so it almost felt like when it ended, and it ended pretty like, abruptly, like it felt like a piece of myself had literally been like cut out of my body and like walked away, like never to be seen again. And I was like, 21. Like that's so like, dramatic. But I was with this person from the time I was like 16 until I was like 21. So it was like, he was such a big part of my life and a huge part of my identity in a very like, unhealthy way. And so it ended and yeah, I thought it was literally the end of the world. Wrote a million songs about it, wrote an album about it. Like yeah, it was quite the process, but it's so like the best feeling in the world, like being able to look back on a relationship that maybe like ended terribly or like really fucked you up. But now being able to look back and be like, “Aw, like I'm so lucky to have had like a young love. Like that was so sweet.” Like, being able to like take it for what it was and like just appreciate the good from it, I think is really fun. 

Melissa: Yeah, and I do hope that when like, if younger people listen to the show that they can take away the idea that, you know, sometimes these younger breakups, like they're painful and they're horrible to go through, but they're so important. Because you find yourself at the end of it. And you, you know, become a stronger person, and you also know more what you want moving forward. You can't let a relationship like ending, it's never gonna end you. It gets better. 

Upsahl: It gets better. It really does. And it's like I feel like it's so formative and like honestly breakups are most of the time like such a blessing in disguise. And like being able to like realize that however many months or a year later is like, ugh, the best feeling in the whole world. It's great. 

Courtney: It's great when you get to that end point, for sure. It's so hard when you're in the middle of it though. 

Upsahl: Yeah. You're like, the process there sucks. 

Courtney:  I'm like, can I fast forward to six months from now? That'd be amazing.

Upsahl: I know. Ugh. It's so tough. But yeah, once you reached that point, you're like, it was worth it. I put in the work baby, like I'm here. 

Melissa: So, you said that you wrote like an entire album or a whole bunch of songs about this breakup. I guess two questions. One, can you listen to that album anymore? Or is that just such a past part of you that you don't want to revisit? And like is there a particular song that you just really struggle with now? 

Upsahl: It's my album called Lady Jesus. And it's basically about like a breakup and then me finding myself or whatever. But like, because I was so like angry and sad and feeling so many things very intensely when writing these songs, by the time the album was like put together and like coming out and I was promoting it and like doing a bunch of like press talking about it, I was so far removed from those feelings. To where I was almost like, I remember like catching myself, being like embarrassed that I was ever that angry or like embarrassed that I was ever that sad. And I had to like, teach myself to like own that because that's like what being a human is about. But like I remember being like, “Oh my God, like Taylor, you were so dramatic, like with half of these songs.” But like that's what music is, is like a way for you to like talk about feelings when you're like feeling them to the max. And like, I love listening to the album because I get to like see how much I've grown as like a person. And there's a lot of songs that didn't make the album that are just like demos sitting on my computer that are like really sad, that I prefer not to listen to. Cause I'm like, “You poor baby. Like, that's so sad.” But the album itself is just funny. Cause by the time I put it out I felt like I was finally over it and then I had to like talk about the breakup all the time. So it was definitely like an interesting experience for sure. 

Melissa: Do you know the spoken word thing called Mortified where people get up and read their middle school journals and diaries. And so I was thinking, is listening to this album for you sort of like that? You're just like, “oh it’s kind of embarrassing how much I cared or how much I was feeling.”

Upsahl: Literally, I'm like… 

Courtney: That's exactly what I was thinking, yeah. 

Upsahl: That sounds incredible. One hundred percent. It's like anytime you look back on like emotions, even if there was like a few months ago, like I journal so much. And I'll like read back like even a year ago and I'm like, “Girl, you were like so dramatic. Like calm down.” But that's fun. That's the reason we're meant to like feel things and process things like that. I also just like feel so lucky to get to be a songwriter, cause that gives me like a whole other like medium to like let all that shit out, which is nice. But yeah, journaling, highly recommend cause it also is so entertaining to look back on. It's so funny. 

Melissa: Yeah, it can be so mortifying though, cause you go and, you know, you read- also, I had brothers and they would — I still have brothers, much to my chagrin — but they would totally read all my diary entries and then make fun of me. And to this day, they still make fun of me about some of the things that I wrote in my personal diary when I was a child.

Upsahl: Oh my gosh. 

Melissa: So I started just not journaling because it was never worth it. Cause I'd just be like, “I hate my brothers end of school.” 

Upsahl: Period. That's it. That's funny. Oh my gosh. 

Courtney: I've gone back and read some of my old journals recently too, and I'm just like,
I felt very strongly about people I barely remember at one point.” It's just like, amazing. I had intense emotions and feelings. 

Upsahl: But that's so epic. I love that, it's funny.

Courtney: I’m wondering, have you had fans come up and ask you about these songs or like tell you their stories? Have they like, used your songs as the soundtrack for a breakup? 

Upsahl: Yeah, that's been like one of the coolest things to hear too, I think. Is like, I just got off of a tour and like, got to meet so many people that like around the world that I've never like, met before. And they a lot of times would come up to me and be like, “This song helped me through a breakup or this song helped me through this.” And I'm like, that is like the reason it's so cheesy obviously to say, but like that's the reason you make music is to like be the soundtrack to other people's breakups, happy moments, sad moments, whatever it is. And so hearing that like, what was once like the end of the world in my mind is now like, you know, like the light at the end of the tunnel for someone else is like, so beautiful. And it makes me like want to continue to be extremely vulnerable. And if I'm feeling really over dramatic and sad, like I will write a song that is really over dramatic and sad and like someone will relate to it at some point in their life, which is really cool.

Melissa: As a songwriter, do you ever feel like you can exact revenge upon people who have wronged you? 

Upsahl: ‘Course.

Courtney: Or is that a misuse of your power?

Upsahl: Mmmmmmm. 

Melissa: Absolutely not. Just don't wrong a songwriter. 

Upsahl: Don't do a songwriter dirty cause there will be songs about it. I think I also felt so bad like putting my album. I was like, “Oh, this poor kid. Like I'm really dragging him, whatever.” But I think if you date a songwriter or involved with one, it's like kind of what you sign up for. Like at least like the type of songwriter I am is very autobiographical. So like literally someone looks at me wrong on the street and I go into my session and write about that. Like it's very like, you're just always kind of taking in like inspiration from whatever. So I think it's what you sign up for, but like, of course it is kind of fun like putting out a song and you're like, “I wonder if they're gonna listen. Like what are they gonna think when they hear it?” Like, that is fun. I love a little like stirring the pot up moment, you know?

Courtney: I've had, when I've been on dating apps before, I've had men be like, “Ooh, you're a writer. Okay, well don't write about me.” And I was like, “Don't worry, you're really boring. You haven't done anything yet, like…” 

Upsahl: Yeah, just like, don't gimme a reason to babe and we'll be fine.

Melissa: So, but you started dating this particular act when you were 16. Were you a songwriter yet?

Upsahl: I was, yeah. Like I grew up just kind of writing songs like all the time. Most of them were terrible. And then when I moved to L.A. is when I started like joining the session round and like writing songs every day. And just kind of, learning how to be better, I guess. But that ex was like a big part of that whole like journey. He was also like in music and a songwriter. So, when the album came out, even though we hadn't spoken, I was like, “He'll understand. “Like this is- and he actually, he hit me up and was like, “Yo, your album is sick.” And I was like, “That's bold cause it's all about you. But thanks man.” Like, yeah, it was funny. 

Melissa: Yeah, but basically he was asking for it 

Upsahl: And like, and like I, he can go put out an album about me, like it is what it is. 

Courtney: Did he get a heads up at all about the album? 

Upsahl: No, I thought about that and then I was like, actually like art is art and like, as an artist, you don't owe anyone an explanation for like, how you were feeling on any given day. And like it's just a, like a screenshot of a day for me and like a feeling for me. And I, I think just like owning your emotions and like, whether or not they want to interpret it differently, that's like up to them, you know. 

Courtney: I like that, and boy do I agree with that. Hard agree. 

Upsahl: Hell yeah, for sure.

Melissa: And we're back. You're listening to Songs My Ex Ruined.

Melissa: So, one of my favorite questions to ask songwriters is, which of your songs do you think someone should definitely not send to someone they're like, crushing on? 

Upsahl: Ooh! Oh, that's so interesting. 

Courtney: This question born of men sending us inappropriate songs, thinking they're romantic when they're not. 

Upsahl: Yeah, I'm like, what are we doing?I do love, I love a good playlist. I think like whenever I really like someone, I'll make them a playlist and like put a cute picture as the cover, like that's my like love language. So when a guy sends me a playlist, I'm always stoked. But one of my songs that should not be probably like, “Toast.” I have a song called “Toast” that's off of my new EP.

Upsahl: And it's about like a very not serious situationship like ending and me being like so heartbroken about someone I never even dated. I feel like that would be a red flag if someone is, like, “Yo, I relate to this song for sure.” 

Courtney: I love that you have a song that's just like a general red flag, just like this one.

Upsahl: Most of them are. Yeah, for sure.  

Melissa: Which of the songs in your catalog should someone send to somebody else if they wanna dump 'em. 

Upsahl: Tea

Courtney: Oh no!

Melissa: Well, we've just had so many people on this show like being like, “Oh I, this song was ruined for me when I was sent to me by someone who was dumping me.” 

Courtney: It's so brutal how people do that, by the way. It's way too common. Like have a conversation. 

Upsahl: That is so hardcore. That feels like something that like I would do when I was like in middle school, would. This is how I feel like That's so funny. I have a song called “Douchebag” that would probably work.

Melissa: I don't need anymore. I'm, yeah, that's it. 

Upsahl: Yeah, that's it.

Courtney: That's enough information. 

Upsahl: So, yeah, send that to whoever you want. I guess it'll get the message across real quick. 

Melissa:  Yeah, the next person who ghosts you, you just send them that track.

Courtney: Or you could definitely take my tack and do some affirmations in your head and redirect your thinking. Just don't do that. 

Upsahl: We could do that. Or we could be petty. It's, it depends on the day. 

Courtney: That's true.

Melissa: Or we can just send them the song “Douchebag,” and then block them, and then do your positive affirmations, afterward. Yeah, it's a “why not both?” situation. You can do both.

Upsahl: Why not both? A hundred percent.

Courtney: Embrace positivity, but also express toxicity. 

Upsahl: That's actually, I think, my motto for life right now. I loved that. That's really good.

Courtney: Can we have a small Radiohead appreciation moment? Cause I think we're all fans here. And no man will ever still Radiohead from us, first of all. 

Upsahl: Period, yes. 

Courtney: Like lifetime pact. So I tell a lot of stories on this podcast about men that have ruined songs for me, but I'm gonna tell a story about how I had one of the greatest concert moments of my life at a Radiohead show.

Upsahl: Oh my God, that's epic. 

Courtney: So I went on a trip to Europe when I graduated from college. The year was 2000. It was pre 9/11. I was with my family for a bit and then I went off on my own to Milan and France. And I bought tickets to go see — by myself — to go see Radiohead play in front of this piazzo outside of Milan. And it was amazing. But it was so interesting because the scope of the concert was like, they were this very tiny band in a huge field. They didn't like sell out the field. They just like had enough people to be right in front of the stage and this massive castle behind them. And I didn't understand for like over a decade, I didn't get the message of the concert, which was like, this is the height of like Radiohead hype era. And they were so uncomfortable with their level of popularity that they were playing all these shows in places like this around Europe where it sort of showcased how big history is and how small they are as a band, visually. Like what a small moment this really is. And it was such a cool idea and I didn't even get it for a long time until I understood like the stuff they'd been reading and like the books against advertising and sort of put together this whole story that they were telling visually. And I was just like, “God, this band is phenomenal. They're just like operating on a different level.”

Upsahl: Oh, that is like insane. The fact you got to witness a show like that is like life, like bucket list shit. That's so amazing. Wow. That's crazy. 

Courtney: Top 10 concert for sure. 

Upsahl: A hundred percent. That's amazing. 

Melissa: I wanna return to this topic in one second, but I also wanna tell a Radiohead story because I totally forgot about this until recently. So, the first time I saw Radiohead was actually the Pablo Honey Tour. So, I was really young. And do you have those guys who were like kind of famous around your town who were like.. I don't, this was this kind of goth dude that had been dating like an acquaintance of mine. And like I didn't know him that well, but I know he had just gotten dumped and he was just like, “Hey, I have an extra ticket to Radiohead. Do you wanna come with me?” Like, I think we just ran into each other on the street because Portland back then was really small. And he was like, “I have a ticket, or do you wanna go? We can just walk over the bridge and go to the club.: And I was like, didn't know the band, but I was like, sure, why not? 

Upsahl: That's so epic.

Melissa: So we got over there and like during the walk over there, I start to realize the guy’s way, way weirder than I ever thought he was. I was like, “Oh, this is gonna be weird.” So, I went and we waited in line, we got into the show and Portland had a lot of all ages clubs back then. I don't think it does anymore, but so like, I didn't get carded or anything. So we go into the show and they suddenly realize, I really do not want to spend that much time, a whole concert with this guy. So I totally just pretended to go to the bathroom, went upstairs and just watched the entire show by myself and then snuck out the back.

Courtney: Good for you.

Upsahl: That is like baller bitch. 

Melissa: I ran into him later. I was like, oh yeah, I had lady problems and just he didn’t ask anymore questions. 

Upsahl: That is such a power move. 

Courtney: That's amazing. 

Upsahl: I'm obsessed.

Melissa: But it's also like totally true. I did have lady problems. My problem as a lady was that I did not wanna watch a show with him, cause he was a weirdo.

Upsahl: Well that's amazing. You can't let a man ruin a show like that for you. Like good for you for just walking away.

Melissa: No, it’s like I wanted to see it and I'm so glad I can, you know, I saw one of their early shows and I can just like prove on my cred forever that I was awesome. But then going back to this question about kind of monuments, is there a venue that would be like your dream venue to play? Are you like a Red Rocks person? Are you like a Royal Albert Hall person? 

Upsahl: I'm opening for Oliver Tree at Red Rocks in a couple months and I cried when I saw the email that I got. I mean, it's opening, so like one day would love to headline Red Rocks, obviously, but I'm very excited for that cause that that's always been like a dream venue. I think for me, like it's so like basic, but like headlining MSG would be like an I made it vibe. I feel like I'm in a place in my life now where like growing up I have, you know, I still have like the wildest goals and the wildest dreams. But like I'm learning to like appreciate the fact that music is my job every day instead of like constantly being like, “I'll only have made it when I'm headlining Madison Square Garden.” That's still obviously a goal, but I think. Even like some of my favorite shows ever have, like I played a show in like a shed in Salt Lake City and like a couple hundred people showed up and were just like raging. And that was like equally as fun as like, you know, playing a bigger venue. So, I think just like good shows that are just like sweaty and hot and just fun, I think are like my favorite. Those are the ones I remember for sure. 

Courtney: It's always a good crowd that makes the show, like you could have the shittiest crowd at MSG and it's just a nightmare. And I have seen some shitty crowds at MSG. And it's just a nightmare. 

Upsahl recently. I did shrooms at Billy Eilish and it gave me, cause I'd seen her before, but it had given me a whole new respect for like like the visuals and the set, like all of it.

I was just like, wow, this is like a show. I think like being an artist to like, watch other artists do their thing. It's like I feel like I'm like in school. I'm like studying, like watching like what they do. It just gives you like a whole new appreciation for them. It's really fun. 

Courtney: She has to be the best like artist with a recent album to do shrooms and listen to. Her music seems so three-dimensional and it feels like there's something that you're not always getting unless you're agreed. Somewhat altered. 

Melissa: I wanna hear more about your new EP and what you have coming up next.

Upsahl: Ooh, thanks. Yeah. I put out an EP called Sagittarius, like the end of last year during Sag season. So that's out. It's like five songs. There's songs for breakups on there. There's songs for being on drugs, there's songs for like kind of every vibe. There's songs that your ex could probably ruin for you. There'll be a lot of new music this year and I'm touring a lot this year again, which will be fun. I feel like coming out of Covid and not being able to play shows has been like so magical, getting to be back shows with people. And I feel like we all have like such a new appreciation for live music, coming from the artist side and being a fan as well. So I think I'm just touring as much as I can this year. So that's the plan. 

Courtney: When does the tour start? 

Upsahl: I'm doing some random, like little festival things and I'm, haven't announced it yet, but I'm doing another, um, a headlining tour, I think like this spring, which will be fun. 

Courtney: Awesome. Yay. 

Melissa: Oh, that's amazing. 

Upsahl: Yeah, I'm very excited. 

Courtney: And you're right, I've been desperate for tours to come back. And I went to see two concerts this weekend. I was like, I'm out. I'm out every night. I'm doing it. And it felt amazing. 

Upsahl: You have to, I liked him just realizing I love music festivals. Like I never thought I would be a little festival girl. But now I, like any chance I get to like go to a festival and just see as many bands as possible, like there's like a whole new appreciation for it.

Melissa: Yeah. I just bought tickets for two festivals in L.A. In May. 

Courtney: What! Did you really?

Upsahl: Wait what festivals? 

Melissa: Yeah. Cruel world. 

Courtney: Oh, that'll be awesome.

Melissa: Because obviously I have to go see Siouxsie and play for her first show in like 25 years. Siouxsie and Love and Rockets. It's gonna be goth hell because we've seen this Rose Bowl, so it's gonna be like super sunny in the daytime and I think I'm probably gonna die.

Upsahl: It's gonna be intense. 

Melissa: But worth it. If I die listening to Siouxsie and the Banshees, whatever.

Upsahl: That's gonna be so fun. Hell yeah.

Melissa: Yeah, and then the other one is it's the Yeah Yeah Yeahs. And they're headlining and I honestly can't remember who else is playing. 

Upsahl: Oh, I've been seeing flyers for that.

Courtney: Yeah, that does look good. I didn't realize that was in L.A.

Melissa: Yeah, and then I'm going to Stagecoach, probably. Because, why not? Courtney looks suspicious. 

Upsahl: Why do you look suspicious? 

Courtney: I don't know. I just don't, I'm, I'm suspicious of- Stagecoach is always such a mixed bill. Like there's definitely a lot of people that I like and then some people that I think I'm like adamantly against on a cellular level. 

Upsahl: I like am such a fan of, old like Johnny Cash and shit. Like that would be my dream Stagecoach. 

Melissa: So like, zombie Stagecoach?

Upsahl: Yeah, right? Like it's a non, it's existent…

Melissa: It gonna be like the virtual country festival with like Johnny Cash and Hank Williams and Patsy Cline. 

Upsahl: I would pull up. That'd be crazy. 

We gotta make that happen. Who do we let know? I'm just kidding.

Courtney:  We're gonna at some people on Twitter after this. 

Upsahl: They gotta make it happen. 

Courtney: But speaking of where can people find you on social media? 

Upsahl: Ooh, it just UPSAHL music everywhere. U-P-S-A-H-L. It's my last name and no one ever knows how to spell it, but that is…those are my socials. 

Courtney: And you can find it in our show notes too. We'll link out so you can find UPSAHL and be her best friend and also send her great songs. 

Upsahl: Period, please.  

Melissa: Make sure to tell her every time you send one of her songs to dump someone.

Upsahl: You have to let me know!

Courtney: Just had a toxic moment. Just sent someone “Douchebag.”

Upsahl: Yeah, I'm here to like encourage everyone to be a little toxic with my songs, so I got you. 

Melissa: I highly appreciate that. Courtney can float on her cloud above above us all. I'm here for the petty. 

Courtney: Look, my therapist told me I can be more petty. I could afford it, so, maybe I will.

Upsahl: Ooh, I like your therapist. Send your therapist my way. Mine thinks I'm too petty. 

Melissa: Well, thank you so much. 

Courtney: Thank you so much. 

Upsahl: That was so fun.