LINKS

Obviously first and foremost, listen to K.Flay's new single, "Shy" and pre-order her forthcoming album, Mono. 

You can read a piece Courtney did circa the beginning of #MeToo that K.Flay participated in for Refinery29.

And I guess follow Courtney on TikTok? That's weird.

TRANSCRIPT

Melissa: Hello, I'm Melissa Locker.  

Courtney: And I'm Courtney E. Smith. 

Melissa: And you are listening to Songs My Ex Ruined, the show where we talk about songs that have been ruined by our exes. So today we are joined by the incredible artist K. Flay, also known as Christine. And we are so excited to have you here today to talk about a song that has been ruined for you by an ex.

K: Thank you for having me. I am also very excited and I have an immediate curveball for you, because I have two answers. 

Courtney: Okay, we can accept that. 

K: One is a romantic ex and one is like some other's type of spiritual ex, a familial ex. 

Courtney: Oh, okay. Let's maybe start with the romantic story. 

K: Okay, we're gonna start with a tale of romance. This, this tale will begin with the song “Paul” by Big Thief.

Courtney: Oh, okay. That's a first time for an artist to come up at all on the pod. I love that. 

Melissa: Also, a fairly modern artist, so I like it.

K: I'm a very modern person.

Melissa:  I can tell.

K: So you know, I just try, I try to stay in the modern world.

Courtney: Just ruining current songs, that's cool. 

K: So yeah, that, that song “Paul,” which actually features a wonderful, I don't know if I'd call it a guitar solo, but like a guitar moment in the bridge, this crazy tone. So “Paul” is on a record called Masterpiece by Big Thief. I love Big Thief. And that whole record was kind of… I don't know, it was like a touchstone for me and my ex when we started dating. And it was just on a lot. And so I hesitate to say that the song is ruined because it's not ruined. However, it is laden, you know what I'm saying? It is turgid. That's how I feel about this song. 

Courtney: Okay, so this comes up a lot, I think. I experience this a lot and since we started doing this podcast, I feel like I experience it more and more where something will come on my Spotify and it's just like my ex and our shared experience with that song like tints it forever. You can't get them quite off of it. 

K: Yeah, there's a term that I learned in college. Called, it's an anthropological term, it's called a palimpsest. Yeah. Are you guys familiar with this? 

Courtney: No. 

Melissa: Oh, wow. Yeah. Throwback to anthropology.

K: Yeah, but it, it's, it's, it kind of stuck with me, so I guess, at least as I understand it, a palimpsest is because in the ancient days, they didn't have paper. In a pre-paper world, they had, you know, like stone tablets or whatever. So you like etch something in that tablet and then your friend wants to write a poem or whatever. So, then they have to write the poem on top of your little etching. And so the pest is this accumulation of communication overlapped on top of itself on an object. And I feel like “Paul” by Big Thief is my personal palimpsest. There's a lot of layers of meaning attached to it and one of those, one of those layers of meaning, and it is June after all, is kind of like gayness. Sexuality. Which, I feel like Big Thief is a band that's kind of part of the discourse, anyways, so it kind of makes sense. But I feel like that's the other part of it for me, it's connected to, to like my sexual identity, which is, which is a lot to put on a song. 

Courtney:  Yeah, I mean, it's big. Can you give us any details about what is the feeling that comes up when that song comes on? Is there a moment in your relationship that flashes back or is it bigger than that?

K: You know, it's, it was kind of the beginning of the relationship. And it was my first relationship with a woman. So, I had dated men my whole life and like been in gay places all the time. So it's kind of weird that I didn't do more gay stuff, you know, prior… 

Melissa: But then you got on TikTok, and you ended up on lesbian TikTok, and then suddenly you're gay. I think this is happening to all of us. It's totally fair.

K: TikTok is making us all gay, and that's what I'm here to say. No, but you know, it is kind of weird upon reflection. Like I lived in San Francisco, then I lived in New York. A lot of my super close friends throughout my life have been gay queer in that space. And that's, that's sort of where I felt I belonged, even though I was dating men and identified as straight for a long time. So, I'm not sure if it was, you know, like the internalized homophobia that unfortunately we all kind of have, or just like I'm also just oblivious to shit. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm just like a late bloomer. I like don't realize things. So maybe I was just like kind of dumb and like, “Oh, right, I'll kiss a girl.” 

Melissa: No, cause I feel like sometimes, you know, when you're younger it's like — nowadays, kids grow up and it's whatever, you know, spectrum you're on, you can 100% be on that. But for a lot of us growing up, it was not totally obvious that these were choices. Like it wasn't totally obvious that like if you're attracted to someone, you could date them or if you're, you know, like it just wasn't as clear. I think kids these days are pretty lucky because they can realize this stuff earlier. So I think, anyway, my point is, I think there are a lot of late bloomers. 

K: Totally. 

Courtney: I think there's also something to the idea of hindsight being 20/20, like we're a generation that was not taught to be in touch with ourselves really either. Like they talk about therapy language like it's a bad thing, but I don't think it is. I think on my own weird little therapeutic journey, I've learned all these terms and ideas that I didn't even know existed before that have helped me make sense of the world, and who I am, and why I am the way I am. You can't know what you don't know. But then once you see it, you can't unsee it, so… 

K: Yeah, totally. And I think once something becomes an option, it is painfully obvious but prior to understanding the option-ness of a thing, it almost doesn't exist. Even though I was in a way seeing it, you know? But I just, I didn't see it as applying to myself. So, this song, I guess, it reminds me of that relationship and, and that person but I guess more than anything, now that we're kind of talking it through, it's more connected to like a sexual awakening. Which is a good thing. 

Courtney: That's a good thing. I have songs like that too. I know exactly what you mean.

K: So, so there's layers because there's some sadness like that breakup for me, which, which actually happened twice. You know, is one of those like a, a one time and then hit him again. So it was, it was painful for sure. But there was also so much like beauty and growth and like, the song's just complicated. Here's how it's been ruined for me. I can't just throw it on casually.

Melissa:  Right, you have to like, emotionally prepare yourself to listen. 

K: Like I will have a response when that song comes on. But, I would argue, that's the point of music. So I- maybe it's all like, am I really trying to listen to like a cooking playlist on Spotify? You know what I mean? Am I really trying to just engage with background music? 

Courtney: Right, of course. But I mean, it's a whole different thing when you're caught off guard. Like once again, the grocery store comes up, you hear something like out in public, in a coffee shop even, like Big Thief is no stranger to being played in coffee shops. And you hear this and it's like, “Oh, I'm gonna go somewhere I didn't necessarily wanna go right now, okay.” Because your music isn't always under your control. You know, what you hear and when you hear it. 

K: It's very true.

Melissa: Yeah, Spotify playlists that the corporate world just displays, they can occasionally be alarming cause you're just be walking around somewhere and suddenly be like, “Oh, I was not emotionally prepared to hear this song right now in this coffee shop.”

K: It's also crazy cause like, my ex is, is a musician, is a recording artist as well. And so that's even crazier cause like, it's one thing to hear a Big Thief song and you're like, “Oh man, that really reminded me.” But then like, what reminds you of someone more than anything is them, is their voice.

Melissa:  Have you run into their music? 

K: You know what, surprisingly very little. I had one moment of it. And I should preface this by saying like, I wish her like all the success and happiness, and like I send no bad vibes or energy in her direction. However, okay this kind of dovetails. But it was a funny moment. So. last fall, I went deaf in my right ear suddenly for no reason. Yeah, it was really crazy. I still am deaf in my right ear. And there were that, this is for a different podcast, but I had to go through like all these potential treatments, none of which worked unfortunately. And then I had to get my mobility back because I lost like my balance, all my equilibrium. Sometimes if you have like a hugely traumatic incident to your vestibular system, it just kind of like, renders you, you know, you're like a baby again. You have to like kind of learn how to move. And so I was like going through that. I was also having this like insane reckoning of, I couldn't really listen to music. I was just grieving the loss of, you know, that experience when a song comes on and it just, the sound washes over you and you are filled with an ecstatic relief. That, unfortunately, is not, I don't have that anymore.

Melissa: Wow, I'm sorry. 

K: Yeah, thank you. It's kind of heavy to say, but I mean, I've, I've definitely come to accept it and I'm also able to appreciate music in a different way. But I have like a constant, pretty intense tinnitus as well in the non-hearing ear, so it's like this weird, you know, whatever. It's a nothingness and a somethingness. But I was like just starting to get back. Trying to listen to music. I was like, “You know what, okay, I'm just going to like put on my noise-canceling headphones. I've been like, in PT, I'm moving around, I'm taking walks.” And I put on, I put on Loram. Guess who song number one? I got hit. I got hit. I got hit. God struck me down. 

Melissa: Oh no. 

Courtney: Wow, It's hard to not have a moment like that and think, is this karma? Did I do something? What happened? 

K: I just, I just felt like I don't really believe in anything besides like the power of humans to like build beautiful things potentially, hopefully, fingers crossed. But I did have a moment of like, you know, God laughs in my face. It felt like a little elbow in the ribs and I, I had to laugh in the moment and I did laugh in the moment. I was like, okay, that's right. 

Melissa: Yeah, I mean when something like that, it's like you have to laugh cause otherwise you're gonna cry. 

K: Totally. And you know, I'm in a new relationship and was dating this new person and, and very happy and like stable and everything. So it was, it wasn't like I got thrown into disarray. I was in a place where I could handle that, but it just felt, you know…  

Courtney: Brutal. 

Melissa: It was just a little, a little fuck you from the universe. Thanks, thanks for that. Appreciate it. 

K: But honestly, if you are listening to this podcast and you feel like the universe has not been sending you fuck yous, I would argue you are not listening. Your eyes are closed. You are, you know what I mean? 

Courtney: True, facts. Well, the other way to look at it is that's a moment to appreciate the beauty of like the strangeness of being a human and being able to see the irony in a moment like that when no other living animal or species really could grasp it. It's unique and exciting. 

Melissa: I think Steve has a deep sense of irony. I think. I dunno what you're talking about. My dog is very attuned to ironic situations. 

K: I think, you know, to just riff on that for one sec. You saying that is kind of making me reflect on — that moment, perhaps more than anything, was a reminder that like it's all happening at once, you know? In any given moment, we are exuberant and frustrated and hopeless and, you know, unrealistically optimistic and like, you know, it's all kind of coexisting. I guess it's the palimpsest of our own minds? Would we say that? 

Courtney: I mean, yes. I would say that like when you said that it's like Etch-a-sketch and I thought immediately of my own brain and the way that I write experiences and overwrite them and take in new information and create new ideas about the world based on it. But the thing underneath the original thing is always a little bit there, you know?

K: The brain is the original palimpsest. You heard it here first. Glad we got to that conclusion. That will certainly impact lots of people. 

Courtney: Nice throwback to MTV News there with you heard it here first. 

K: Yeah, take that Wolf Blitzer. But, but okay. I will say this, it was in a moment, and I think maybe this is a nice little end parenthesis on this song. The song that your ex ruined for you, when you hear it, can actually be an opportunity to like kind of expand the way you respond to that individual and the memory. Because I think — now, truth be told, I did hit skip. You know what I'm saying? I did not listen to the whole song.

Courtney: Yeah, that’s just self-care.

Melissa: You're like, I'm just gonna sit here and listen to the universe say “fuck you” for two minutes. 

K: I'm like, and I, I know the song. It was like recorded while we were dating, like, so I'm familiar, I've heard the song before. But I guess it did give me a moment where I could say, “You know what? God bless.” You know, I do want this person who I cared about deeply, I want them to succeed and like find the things that they're looking for. And at the same time, I will hit next. You know? And so I think there's like, it is that opportunity to be like, I'm not gonna self-flagellate and put it on repeat at volume 11, but, I can't acknowledge- It's like I feel like in some movie there's a scene where like these people have had a crazy history pass each other on the street and they just nod and keep walking. Maybe I'm making that up, I don't even know if it's true, but like that's what that moment felt like for me. 

Courtney: That's a real trope and that's a real feeling. I mean, I won't lie, there have been times I've put on the song that is like In my mind about this breakup to make myself cry because sometimes you need to cry. Like it's good for you to do it and let it out. And music is very helpful to me in doing that, in getting the expression of emotion out that I otherwise would stifle and choke off like the very tense little woman that I am. But yeah, that is self-torture also, like it can go way too far. 

K: Yeah, I think it's that line between — I guess, I don't know if it's wallowing. What is that? It's, it's, it's swimming. 

Courtney: Flagellation? Self-flagellation?

Melissa: Yeah, It's just like light masochism. 

Courtney: It can be wallowing too, though. Like if it's just a song and maybe you listen to it a couple times and move on, cool.

Melissa: I feel like there's probably some amazing German phrase for putting on music, you know, it makes you sad in order to feel sad. 

Courtney: A million percent. 

K: Yeah, should we make that term up in English? 

Courtney: Farfegnugen? Wait, no. That already exists. 

K: What's a word for sad? Like I kind of wanted to vibe off morose. 

Melissa: How about just morose-ing? Because you got the “sing” and the “morose.” That's morose. 

Courtney: Look at you. Let's get you a job at the New Yorker ASAP. 

Melissa: But then you'd have to put like little umlaut over the o’s or something if I worked at the New Yorker. 

Courtney: Good call, yeah. We're going to take a break and consult a German person and when we come back, Christine will tell us her second story.

Courtney: Let's pivot to the second story. So this is not a romantic story, but you didn't classify it as a friendship breakup. 

K: No, this is a family breakup. 

Courtney: Okay, that's also extremely hard. 

K: Yeah, this is family breakup by death. By dying. 

Melissa: The ultimate breakup, okay. 

K: The ultimate breakup.

Courtney:  We've had destruction, bring us the death. 

K: So, well, I was talking to my girlfriend actually before this, and I was like, “Oh, what should I, well, I wonder what song I should talk about?” And she suggested, so I'm gonna give credit where credit's due. She was like, “Oh, you could talk about Tom Flaherty.” So my biological dad, his name is, was Tom Flaherty, and he died when I was 14. And he was kind of this, the person who introduced me in many ways to music and a love for music. Now, I didn't start making music ‘till later, but he was the person who, you know, he kind of hobbyist, played guitar and always listened to music. And he kind of ruined something for me that in adult life I've been able to make peace with. But my dad used to, my dad was a very serious substance abuser, which is why he died. And he would get really like drunk and high or whate- you know, some combo, who knows? And listen to the Dark Side of the Moon by Pink Floyd. 

Courtney: Oh, bad choice. Bad choice. 

K: Courtney: bad choice. So I had this very Pavlovian, I had almost this built-in response to the beginning of that record and even the artwork of that record as like there is a pit in my stomach and I am afraid. Like I am actually just scared. Not that my dad's going to hit me or something. He wasn't physically abusive in any way, but you know, when you're a kid and you're around someone who's, who's high or, or really intoxicated, it's very frightening. You know, their behavior is odd. You also don't understand what it means to be altered in that way. So it's like, totally incomprehensible. And it was just me and my dad when, cause my parents were split and I didn't have any biological siblings, so it was just two of us, like vibing out late at night to the Dark Side of the Moon. 

Courtney: Oh, that sounds awful. That's so bleak. 

K: That's scary. So Dark Side of the Moon — point of fear, point of confusion, point of like just an easy flash point, an easy like port key to this like place of just childhood angst. And I've been able to now create some new memories around the record. 

Courtney: I did not realize so much of this about you. I have a really similar story. My dad died through self-harm also, and he had issues with substance abuse. It was self-medication, of course, for untreated mental health issues. And I think there's something that happens with some of the memories around people like that. Obviously, your parent is an extremely important person to you and has a huge impact on your life. I was much younger than you when my dad died, so it was even more abstract, these ideas. I remember going to visit him in rehab. He went a few times and like made me things and I still have, like a little stool and a wallet and stuff. It's very strange to recontextualize that as an adult. But I remember him being into music, but not like what music he was into, and there wasn't anything, in particular, I associated with him. Until later on as I got older, my aunt was like, she gave me a DVD — several years ago — of an Eagles, like, concert. And she was like, your dad really loved the Eagles and this was a big band for him. And now I cringe, like as if the Eagles weren't kind of cringey anyway, but it's very like, I just can't, I like, no. The vibes are bad, no matter what. And there's not that darkness other than “Hotel California,” like there is with Dark Side of the Moon, to it. It's just, I don't even think it's necessarily the Pink Floyd of it all or the like spookiness of that album. It's like that's a very, traumatic, core thing. 

K: And do you feel like you kind of took ex post facto the Eagles and put it in that complex of like… 

Courtney: memories? 

K: kind of traumatic, painful, weird badness?

Courtney: For sure, because if the Eagles just come up, like when I have the radio on, it's not the first thing that comes to mind. I don't immediately go to heebie jeebies. It's. Sort of like, ah, I really like Don Henley's voice. And then, you know, the bad memory, the, the traumatic memory will creep in there. And it's like, “Hm, maybe I wanna turn this off. Maybe this doesn't feel great.”

K: You know, I don't know if it's by virtue of how much I speak about my dad in the context of music, or by virtue of the fact that I randomly got put in this group therapy thing when I was a teenager, right when it happened. That honestly changed my whole life. It was so, so immensely clarifying for me and alleviating for me to, to be a part of this. But I, I feel very like, at this point I, you know, I'm bummed my dad isn't around to see, you know, whatever in my life, and especially cause I am a professional musician, I think he would be quite like tickled by that. But I, I think I've lost, I've shed most of the kind of painful part and have gotten to a, a much more, uh, a place of, uh, equanimity around it, which is nice. But yeah, I guess sometimes and with some people, it's hard to ever get to that spot.

Courtney:  It can be a process. I'm certainly in the midst of processing it. 

K: It is. I mean, it is interesting with, with a deceased parent. You know, they keep — even though it's been like 20 years or whatever, it does kind of come up in these different ways. And it's interesting to, to observe that and I think, I was actually talking the other day about, it came up in, in an interview or something about one of my earliest memories of a song, which is the song “Psycho Killer” by the Talking Heads, which my dad played for me, and I thought was the fucking coolest song. I was like, “Oh, I can scream psycho killer. What? What is the hell is going on?”

You know, like, and I didn't know French and I didn't even know that qu'est-ce was French. So I was just like, you know, screaming and you know, I have so many also lovely memories of like joyful music memories with my dad. And those, those vastly outweigh the, the Dark Side of the Moon. But it's actually sometimes it's good to remember, at least for me. Maybe you know with “Paul” the song, not the person? I don't really know who Paul is, but… 

Courtney McCartney obviously. 

K: Oh, I was gonna go Paul, like from the Bible. 

Melissa: I would think it would be Paul Rubins cause… 

Courtney: Oh, obviously that's the go-to Paul for sure.

K: You know what I realized recently, Paul Newman, young Paul Newman. Delicious. 

Melissa: I don't generally like blondes, but he was very attractive. 

Courtney: Even older Paul Newman, I'm into it.

K: Yeah, why am I being ageist? Paul Newman, period. 

Melissa: A friend of mine had this amazing story about Paul Newman,but before I get into that story I have to share my theory that low brushes with fame are much more interesting than high brushes with fame. It's like who cares if you're friends’ a Senator, who cares if you like, are besties with Kim Kardashian? It's like when you drunkenly run into Paul Newman in an elevator and you say, “Ain't you the guy that can eat 50 eggs?” And he's just like, “Kid no one has said that to me in 20 years.” That is a much better story. Or like the time that I ran into John Claude Vandam while he was eating a corn dog, that is much more interesting than, you know…

Courtney: A much less likely string of words to happen. 

K: Can I tell you a, a low brush I think I had? Okay, so you guys know the band blink-182, correct?

Courtney: I, I know them very well, actually.

K: “I'm letting the feeling go (I'm feeling it!)” Okay, so that is one of their songs. 

Melissa: That was an uncanny ability to recount that. That was great. 

K: So, I was at a party at my booking agent's house in Encinitas, California. And I was starting a tour or something, and this guy who was a photographer, like some kind of a rock photographer person or something, he was at the party and he was like, “Hey Kai, can I take a picture of you in the bathroom?” I know that sounds sketchy, but it, it wasn't sketchy. He was like, you know, artistically like, “Oh, this is cool,” or something. So, I go in the bathroom and this was when I still drank alcohol. I don't drink alcohol anymore. But I did drink alcohol, and I was also drinking alcohol in that moment. So I was kind of just, I wasn't like wasted or anything. I was just kind of like, you know when you're tipsy and like frictionless 

Courtney: Yes, what a great way to describe it.

K:  You just kind of moving. Yes, so I get in the bathroom, he, he's like, “Hey Tom, come in here, blah, blah, blah.” Some guy comes in, we take a picture. Then the photographer, my booking agent, whatever, sends me the picture. And I'm with my band and they're like, “Oh my God, you met Tom DeLong?” And I was like, “Wait, what, I did?” Anyway, so there's a photo of me and Tom DeLong in a bathroom where I just like did not, I guess I didn't really know what he looked like, and so I just, unbeknownst to myself, took this photo. Which is just like me being a dumb ass, I guess. 

Melissa: That is like the perfect low brush with fame.

Courtney: I would like to also take this opportunity to use our own podcast to promote something I'm doing by virtue of telling you a story about Tom DeLonge. I love this, so this is gonna be a long path to a short result. So on TikTok, you can find me and I'm telling stories about, I used to work at MTV in the 2000s in music programming and it's stories of indie rock, things that happened that are weird or unknown. 

Melissa: What's your TikTok handle? 

Courtney: Oh @courtneyinsongs. Okay, but this is not an indie rock story. It's the story of an A guy from blink-182 really wanting to be an indie rocker in the early 2000s. So when Tom left blink-182 and did Angels and Airwaves, that first album came out and his manager came to like walk him around the building and explain to everyone what he was doing, cause it was so different from blink. Sure, why not? And they played me a few songs and I was like, “Oh man, it sounds like you've been listening to The Cure and Jimmy World and Sigur Ros and like made a thing.” And he just looked at me and he's like, “Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly what I, I love those bands and yeah.” And so then he and his manager are like, could you just walk around with us and explain it to everyone? No, thank you. You, you also can say those words together. 

K: Okay, that's very good. So that's your Tom DeLong story. 

Courtney: Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah, I don't, I don't have a Tom DeLong story, but I do, I was thinking about our quest for the correct German phrase or English phrase, and I did think of the German word weltschmerz, which is, I Googled it. It's a mood of sentimental sadness or a mental depression app they caused by comparison of the world with an ideal state. Like a mood with sentimental sadness. 

K: Can you repeat this word one more time? 

Melissa: Weltschmerz. It's W-E-L-T-S-C-H-M-E-R-Z. Weltschmerz.

Courtney: I mean, it has all the things you're looking for, Christine. I feel like it has like a weird beginning that should be a V but is a W. It has a Z at the end. We're only missing umlats here. 

Melissa: Yeah, it's, I'm weltschmerz all over the place. 

Courtney: And schmertz is such like a weird, very strange tongue feel, mouth feel. 

K: Schmertz, yeah.I like that quite a bit. Weltschmerz. 

Melissa: Now you could say weltschmerz pal- nope, can't say it. 

K: Weltschmerz palimpsest, there you go. Yeah!

Courtney: Wow, one of us is a professional musician and lyricist.

K: So, here's what I would take away from what we've just done that felt really unique to me. Weltschmerz palimpsest Jean Claude Vandam corn dog.

Courtney: All right, serious pivot to our last topic of conversation, Christine.

Melissa: Your new album! 

Courtney: Yeah, tell us about this album or the single, whatever you want to tell us about. 

K: Okay, so I have a, a new record coming out this September. It is called Mono. Which is a nod to two things. The first is that I lost half my hearing and then made this record. So I made this record in mono and that was its own intense, psychotic, exhilarating reckoning that had to take place of like, what, how did the show, The Real World used to go? Like, here's the story of 10 strangers. You think, you know, but you have no idea. Was that part of it or something like that? 

Courtney: For a few seasons, yeah. You think you know,  you have no idea. When people stop being polite and start getting real.

K: Okay, so that's the story of this record. You think you know, but you have no idea. Mono is the record when people stop being polite and start getting real. So, it's partially about that, but I think in a broader sense, it's about mono as, you know, one. As the ultimate hero, the ultimate villain, the savior, the imp of our lives, is just us. You know, you can look around trying to identify the problem and the solution and it, and it all kind of lies within. And I think for me, I spent years avoiding just being with myself in an authentic way. I think there are a lot of reasons for that, which we can talk about on another episode. But this, this record and, you know, where I'm at in my life, I think I'm, I'm at this place where I've been able to really sit inside my own personal power and feel good about cultivating that in a real way. And you know, this, this record, I hope when people listen to it, it just, it engenders a similar feeling of power that within us lies the capacity for all of the salvation that we could ever need, you know. And, so that's, that's kind of the, the flip side of it. But, the new single out is called “Shy.” I was raised in the Midwest. I was raised to, you know, don't budge in line. If there's like a bunch of people trying to get through a subway door, just wait back, don't push through. Just to kind of stand back, hang back a little bit. And I think especially when it comes to romantic situations — like I don't really know how to flirt. I don’t know. People claim I do know how to flirt. Like people that I've dated are like, “You were flirting with me.” And I'm like, but yeah, I'm not like a flirtatious person. I don't enter a room and people are like, “Ooh, I think she has a crush on me.” I'm like, I don't even know what I, you know, so, I think I, I tend to be kind of romantically shy and, and this song is, is really about like, that, that feeling of, of being shy, but also wanting to do a bunch of wild stuff. And on stage and in my professional life I am, I'm quite wild. And so just, just thinking about those two things, coexisting has always been an interesting point of creative spark. So that's, that's kind of what's coming up. And I'm just in the middle of a tour with Grandson. I'm doing a co-headline tour with him around the U.S. and then headed to Europe in the fall and we're just doing the whole damn thing.

Melissa: That's so amazing. 

Courtney: Do you feel like one of those selves is more authentic, or is there a battle for which one is in control? The wild you or the shy you? 

K: That's a great question. I think probably — what's more authentic? I think the wild me is more authentic. But I think there are parts of what I might put in the category of shyness that are really just respect. Which, which I think is also authentically me. I mean, I think there are, there are versions of listening. Like shyness as listening first, then speaking. Shyness as in not assuming you are the leader or the one that is in charge of a situation, right? Or the expert. So I think there are ways in which like, an approach of curiosity kind of can feel like shyness, and I think that's also authentically who I am. I think sometimes the, the inauthentic part for me is, is when I know what is right or I know what I want and I'm, I'm kind of impeded by fear of judgment. And I think that's, that's the part where I don't, don't love to be shy. And I think I've, I've shed some of that over time and music has been a huge part of that. I mean, cause now I get this platform to actually enact some of that authentic wildness and then I'm like, “Oh yeah, I didn't, I didn't even need to be shy.”

Melissa: Yeah, I'm pretty naturally shy, and I still am. And I’m learning. But I do have a friend who is an actress and she gave me this little tip, which has actually really helped. It’s like we were going out to karaoke and she's like, “Oh, I really hate doing karaoke, but I'm gonna get up to do it.” And she goes up and she just like kills it and has so much fun actually doing a blink-182 song. And I was like, “How do you do that?” She's like, “Oh, it's easy. I just put on a character that's really good at karaoke and really likes karaoke, and that's how I do it.” And so that little teeny thing she said has actually kind of helped me when I'm going like into an interview or I'm going to a situation, I'm like, I'm just gonna put on a character that really enjoys doing this. And then you can just sort of act your way through something. Which isn't necessarily the most fulfilling way to live, but you know, you can get to go have these fun experiences when you're super shy without kind of giving in to the shyness. 

K: Absolutely, and I think it's also the lesson of, you know, sometimes we put on costumes and it turns out, maybe that costume just becomes an outfit in our weekly rotation. You know, like, maybe you put on that persona of like, I'm a person who likes karaoke. And then you do karaoke, it's fun and everyone claps and you have catharsis. And you're like, actually, maybe I do like karaoke. Like I found that for myself, there are things where I was like, man, this doesn't feel super natural at first. And then I kind of do it a few times and I'm like, actually, I like wearing, you know, that spandex jumpsuit. I don't, I don't know. I don't know why I got on spandex, but you know, just thinking about costumes. 

Melissa: Because everyone looks good in it. Literally everyone.

K: Yeah, I've never seen a person who doesn't look good in spandex, that's for sure.

Courtney: Do you want to tell us where people can find you, and where they should go to hear your new album? Or rather hear the single before the new album comes out, which will be this September.

K: Absolutely, so you could find me just, you could just Google K.Flay. And there's just basically any place that a person is on the internet, I'm there. And I'm, you know what I'm saying? Like I'm just out there. So basically, if you can't find me, that's kind of on you. That's, but yeah. 

Melissa: Your Pinterest page is so good.

K: But yeah, I'm, I'm everywhere. You know, we've put out the first two singles for this record. I'm just, just so excited to release the whole thing. I really feel strongly like this is, this is the greatest body of work that I, that I've been able to put together, and I've been able to, to do it, I think in large part by virtue of like the crazy hearing loss and this change, it's just kind of freed me up to, to be creative in some new and unexpected way. So I'm really grateful. I really appreciate you guys chatting. I really enjoyed it. And yeah, I think that's about all I have to say. I think that I've put it all on the table, I mopped the floor, I cleaned it up, and the restaurant is open for business tomorrow.

Courtney: Nice, thank you. It was such a pleasure.

Melissa: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for stopping by. We are so excited to chat with you. 

K: Thanks, guys.