Author TJ Alexander joins Courtney and Melissa to talk about a favorite song ruined by a bad movie date, early 2000s metal, and finding belonging in goth culture. Then TJ discusses their spicy, rom-com novels.

NOTES

Listen to Am I British Yet?  And stream "Black British."

TRANSCRIPT

Melissa: Hello, I'm Melissa Locker. 

Courtney: And I'm Courtney E. Smith. 

Melissa: And you are listening to Songs My Ex Ruined, the show where we talk about songs that have been ruined by our exes.

Courtney: For this episode, we have a very special guest. Her name is V V Brown, and you might have heard her album, Traveling Like the Light. It's sold something like a million copies in the U S. So, some of you bought it. Some of you have it. Some of you have listened. She's also a journalist as well as a musician. She's a writer for the Guardian and she has a new book coming out that she's going to tell us about, as well as a new record called Am I British Yet? And while that is a very clever title, it has a pretty strong meaning. We're going to get into that in a minute, but V V, we don't mess around on this podcast. We get right to the heart of it. Please, tell us about a song that an ex ruined for you? 

VV Brown: Right. Well, first of all, before I tell you my story, I'd like to say thank you for having me on. 

Melissa: We're so thrilled to have you here. 

VV Brown: This is quite funny. I lived in L.A. for six years and I was dating this guy who was a narcissist. This, that word is used so much now that we've become like way more aware of our psychological behaviorisms. Back in the day, that word wasn't flying around, but now I know that's what he was. He wasn't very nice, and he was shorter than me. And I'm 5'11 so I had to walk around with flip flops all the time because I was so conscious of being taller than him. That I would hunch my back and walk in flip flops because he was shorter than me.

Melissa: But wait, was this something he requested, or just something you felt like you needed to contribute to the relationship? 

VV Brown: Both. It was a weird bit of conditioning, so it was almost like something I felt, something he requested, and then something that reinforced an insecurity that I already had. And then, there I was like the Hunchback of Notre Dame with flip flops on just sort of like hunching around the mall, that kind of thing.

Melissa: Sanctuary! Sanctuary! 

VV Brown: I remember this one time I was in love with this album by an artist called Teedra Moses. It was the soundtrack of the first two years of my time living in L.A. I had a Mini Cooper and I was driving around with the top down, going to the market, just off Sunset. And it was just a great time. So, I loved this album. I loved this one song on it. I can't even remember the name because it's completely been destroyed by the experience I'm about to tell you. And we were getting it on and, you know, we were like kissing up and he was like touching the boob. Then it went down, you know, and all that kind of stuff. And I'm getting not really getting too turned on because, to be honest, it was rubbish most of the time, but hey, confidence was low back then as a broke artist and trying to make it and questioning myself and all that lot. And then as it was getting a bit more rhythmic, I put my hand on his head and it kind of moved. And, and I thought, “Okay, okay, this is, this must be just, maybe I'm just imagining this, maybe?” Okay, so it's getting more rhythmic, more rhythmic, more rhythmic. 

Melissa: If this turns into a “there were rats” story, I am just leaving the podcast.

VV Brown: No, no, no. And as I touched his head, literally the toupee, what do you guys call it in America? The… 

Melissa/Courtney: Toupee 

VV Brown: And you've got to remember that I've been dating this guy for a while and this hadn't happened, like I thought this was his hair. Literally in the moment it just fell off. 

Courtney: Oh my god.

 VV Brown: Just fell off in the moment. So it's happening, it's happening, it's happening. I'm looking, my eyes are wide. I'm like, what, who is this person? Who is this person? He looks completely different. And then the worst thing was that the hairline, there was like a weird, like Craig David-esque hairline. I don't know if you guys know who Craig David is, but it was this very neat hairline that kind of blended into the toupee/wig. It was dripping. It was dripping down his face and cheeks.

Melissa: It was one of the spray-on ones. 

VV Brown: One of the spray-on ones. So, it's dripping and dripping and dripping and the music is going and going and going and I'm screaming, not because of that, I'm not screaming because of, of that. I'm screaming because I'm like, “Who are you?” Because he looks completely different. Anyway, it stopped. We didn't get to the end. And I just thought to myself, “I don't want to be superficial because obviously, it's okay if you wear a toupee. I'm cool with that.” I think it was just the shock and the fact that he looked so different.

Courtney:  It's also not okay if you lie to your partner about who you are. That's not a thing you can keep up forever, clearly.

VV Brown: I mean, clearly it didn't keep up. 

Melissa: How long had you guys been seeing each other at this point? 

VV Brown: Well, we'd been seeing each other for around eight months, six to eight months. So 

Courtney: Oh yeah, no. That’s a long scam.

Melissa: That’s a long time! I thought this was like weeks. 

 VV Brown: No, no. 

Courtney: That's a long catfish. 

Melissa: Was this just like the ultimate bad hair day? Like the glue? 

VV Brown: Yeah, I think that's exactly as exactly what it was. It must have been. He didn't apply the glue on the hair appropriately, or whatever. Or maybe he was in a rush, but t was that moment that — it didn't like, stop me from dating him anymore. I mean, that would be like really superficial. There was already cracks in the relationship anyway, but it just ruined that song for me. Anytime I hear that song now, by Teedra Moses, all I hear is the rustling and heavy breathing and screaming and shock. 

Courtney: Wait, which song is this specifically? 

VV Brown: Let me just, I gotta get this right. 

Melissa: Yeah, now we need to know. 

Courtney: Yeah, no one will ever hear this song the same.

VV Brown: So, I got it right here. It's her first single I believe, it's called, and this is ironic, “Be Your Girl” by Teedra Moses, “Be Your Girl.”

VV Brown: It's a really cool song but it's completely ruined and kind of gave me anxiety and trauma really. Every guy I dated I would weirdly pinch or pull the hair slightly just to make sure.

Melissa: Yeah, you’re like “Can I just run my fingers through your hair just for a minute?” 

VV Brown: Let me just show you some affection. Let me put my hand in your... Okay, it doesn't come off, it's good. It's all good, it's all good, it's all good.

Melissa: Okay, so I have a few questions here. What was his reaction? Was he like, “Oh my god, my hair!”?

VV Brown: Well, he was having such a good time that for a while, he didn't really think about it. And it was almost like I had to disrupt his pleasure. So, it was like, wait, oh my God, what the, what the fuck? And then all of a sudden, he's like, “What?” Cause he was American. “What?” Sorry, I don't mean to be, I don't mean to be offensive. “What? What?” 

Melissa: Deeply offended. 

VV Brown: Sorry, guys. And then stopped. And there was like silence and I picked it up really slowly and I was just like, “What is this?”

Courtney: It completely fell off of his head? Was totally disconnected? You picked it up.

VV Brown: Totally.

Melissa: He didn't notice a cool breeze? 

VV Brown: Nothing. He was completely overwhelmed with my skill. 

Courtney: This is such an interesting difference in the way men and women experience sex. I feel like as a woman I have to be so aware of my body and everything that's happening all the time. And I also spend way more time than is necessary judging myself and thinking about what the other person is seeing and thinking. And I, men, not all men for sure, but this one clearly, do not have that same experience.

Melissa: Well, but he was also clearly concerned about what people thought because he was wearing a wig and he had gotten his edges done and he had, you know…. 

Courtney: Oh yeah, I mean, out in the world, yes but the way that people connect or don't connect during sex. He was clearly like plugged into he was something else.

Melissa:  Himself.

VV Brown: I obviously was not really that plugged in because if I was I probably wouldn't have cared. It could have flied off and I wouldn't have cared. So, obviously he wasn't the right person for me. Hence why I've married my amazing wonderful husband. He actually has long hair. Maybe that's a weird response? 

Courtney: Yeah, that kind of thing changes the trajectory of what you like and what you think and obviously what you were suspicious of about people.

VV Brown: Yeah, it's a subconscious thing. I had to marry a man who has hair down to his shoulders. 

Melissa: But okay, going back for a second. You pick up the wig and you're like, “Sir, your hair fell off.” And what is his reaction at this point?

VV Brown: He took some time to get over the pleasure. We’re winding down, and then it was embarrassment. And he grabbed it, put it back on his head — which I thought was a bit, what's the point? And then he left the room, and there was a bit of awkwardness. And he was in the bathroom for a while, and then he came back out with it on. And I was just like, I don't know. It was that awkward silence where you don't really know what to say. And the kind of relationship that I was in, I wasn't my confident self. We weren't in this healthy relationship where we could laugh at ourselves or laugh at each other or laugh at the situation. It was quite a self-conscious situation. So, it just went over our heads, and we moved into the next moment of, I think what we were watching, what's the famous director of with that spooky series that came out in the ‘70s? Twin, Oh God, I can't… 

Melissa: Peaks? Twin Peaks. 

VV Brown: That's the one. That's the one. Yeah. 

Melissa: That did not come out in the ‘70s. 

VV Brown: When did — ‘80s? ‘90s? Early ‘90s? 

Courtney: Yeah, early ‘90s. 

VV Brown: That's right, yeah. So we just went back to watching that and that's the end of it really. 

Courtney: It does have a ‘70s vibe though, you're not wrong.

Melissa: But also I'm just going to say that making out to Twin Peaks is weird. 

Courtney: That's a choice. That's a strong choice. 

VV Brown: Yeah, weird or eccentric, perhaps? I don't know. There's some really, really weird scenes in that. But great show though. Great show. But hey. 

Courtney: How much longer did this relationship last after that?

VV Brown: Not very long after that, because I actually had to go back to the UK. And I moved back to L.A. after it, but that kind of broke it down and we didn't see each other. So it was — I was young. I was dumb.  

Melissa: Yeah, so did you guys ever talk about his hair falling off? Was there a conversation? Or was it just we're pretending this never happened?

VV Brown: It was let's just pretend this never happened. However, there was another incident where this cropped up again soon after. We were at the beach, and it was Santa Monica Beach, and he was splashing in the water and stuff. And then all the drippings happened again. So, his hair didn't fall off. It was just the hairline dripping, came down. And I think at that point, I was just like, “Look, you know what?” 

Courtney: Here's a towel.  

VV Brown: Just take it off. 

Melissa: I know. I mean, sir, you need to have a long chat with your barber about the limits of your hair color. Because, you know, if you can't go in the water or get sweaty, you need to know that. I really feel like the barber or the stylist, who ever this person was…

Courtney: …culpable here? 

Melissa: Yeah, that person is at fault. They really should have said some clear, like,” By the way, do not go in the water. Do not get sweat.”

Courtney: Here’s the caveat for this, yeah. 

Melissa: This is an amazing story, but I also feel slightly bad for him because I do feel like women do this stuff all the time. Like you get your spray tan and your fake lashes and you get your hair extensions and you get your padded bra and your high heels. People would be shocked to learn that I'm only 5'2”, and they clearly think I'm at least 5'10” with my heels. 

VV Brown: It's true. It's true. There is definitely a sort of, we need to be a little bit easy that men have these issues as well. And it's a bit of a double standard, I guess. But I think for me, because he just was not that much of a nice guy, it was almost like the compassion seeped out of my body. But yeah, you're right. Guys have these kind of beauty problems, too. And they also have these insecurities and they're trying to fix and cover up. I feel sorry for him a little bit, but because he was so mean to me. He used to make me wash his bath. He used to make me scrub his bath. And look, another story. 

Courtney: What? What? 

Melissa: In like a, like in My Own Private Idaho, where he puts on a little Dutch boy outfit and scrubs the bathroom?

VV Brown: Yeah, honestly, it was almost verging on abuse, that relationship. He wasn't nice. The compassion's left. 

Courtney: This is the thing we want to point out to everyone listening. We're not making fun of a man for his looks. And we do have empathy because he was afraid of dating someone who was as tall as him and he was insecure about his hair, and we've all felt that way about our bodies, right? But that kind of thing, even when women use beauty products or enhancements, there's a point in the night where we take it all off, and you really see us. The raw version of us. And that happens well before the six-month mark in most relationships these days. I'm sorry he ruined a whole album, a song or an album for you that was like your soundtrack to this life in L.A. that sounded really lovely other than this relationship.

VV Brown: Well, the irony is that when I left L.A., I went back to London and I got dropped from my label. And I was really depressed, especially after this incident with the ex, and the wig and all that. And then I spent a year trying to get another deal. And when I got that deal, the whole album Traveling Like The Light was basically inspired by him. So, and I didn't even connect the dots with this story, actually. It was just a story that I remembered. But when you hear things like, “Leave.” “Shark in the Water."

All these like songs, they were actually inspired by this guy in L.A. that I dated. And the very first gig that I did in London, which was like a showcase gig, really small, he turned up. It was so freaky, if I be honest. I was a little bit freaked out cause it was so small you could see everybody's face. And he's from the U.S. It's not like he's in France or Liverpool or something where he can take a train. He turned up, and he was there in the gig listening to me sing these songs about really him. And there he still was with the same thing on his head. There you go. So, it's funny. It's very funny how things are. 

Courtney: Was there ever a conversation between the two of you? Do you think he realized those songs are about him? Have you talked about it at all? 

VV Brown: Never. In fact, when he came to London and he was in the crowd unexpectedly, I didn't even get to speak to him. He just left. So, I don't know if he presumed it was about him. I did say in the set, “This song is about my ex-boyfriend who was a complete arsehole.”

Melissa: Did the lighting guy just shine the spotlight right on him? 

Courtney: So, yeah, word to the wise here, if you do not want that to happen to you, just don't be an asshole in your relationship. 

VV Brown: You could inspire a whole album. 

Melissa: Yeah, I know. I think one lesson we can take away from this podcast and all the musicians we've had on is don't piss off a songwriter. Don’t do it.

VV Brown: Yeah, don't do it. Especially Taylor Swift. Don't do it.

Courtney: So, V V, tell us about what you're working on now? I want to hear about what's inspired your next album.

VV Brown: Absolutely. So things have drastically evolved from the first album, Traveling Light the Light. I did an album called Samson & Delilah and Glitch, all independently released through my own label, which is great. And this new album has come after six years of me having a break. So, I had two children. And I took a break from years of touring, years of being on a tour bus, and I just wanted to just spend time learning about Vanessa Brown. Not V V Brown. And what it's like to be a mom and pour everything into them in those early years. And then I kind of came out of it desperate to get back to music again, being creative in the full capacity, being in the studio. And the one thing that struck me was I'd already been writing essays and articles about Black Britishness, about what it means to be a Black woman. And that started to seep into my songwriting. And I dived in deep, and I hooked up with, not that kind of hooked up, I hooked up with this producer called Jay Sensible from Australia. Ironically, he was a recommendation from an ex — not that one. Another one. 

Courtney: Some exes come in handy.

VV Brown: We literally made this album remotely. He was in Australia, near Melbourne, and I was in my studio. Everything just came very naturally. And it's all about questioning what it means to be a Black British person. Because in England, we get lots of information about what it means to be Black in America. American culture has quite a huge influence on British culture, and in general with movies and music. American culture is very international, but there are very small voices that come out of what it's like to be Black and British, because it's a completely different experience. And I felt like I wanted to communicate that with this record. And it's been interesting and fantastic to go on this ride. And, for me, this record is not about record sales, it's not about stats, it's not about fame, I'm past that. Now I've got two kids. My priorities have shifted. This is a sociological debate that I want to have with the audience.

Courtney: What are some of the ideas that came out of that?  And how did you put these ideas that I'm sure are very complex into song form? 

VV Brown: Poetry, really — I mean, usually, when I write a song, I write the melody first. I believe melody is king, and I usually scat through, like, na na na na, or whatever. And then I imprint the lyrics onto the melodies. That's how I usually write. This had moments like this, but a lot of the time it was me just journaling, and writing, and almost writing essays at times, and taking sentences from my journal, my essays, things that I was reading at the time, and reproducing phrases that would fit into those melodies The first single was called “Black British.” And one of the lines is “navigating through the beautiful and terrifying life, Black British.”

And that line, which is unique to is my words, it came from an essay because one of the paragraphs was all about the conflict of how wonderful it is to be British, but also how terrifying it is when you're Black and having to go through the pendulum of us being colonized by the British, but yet we're here and who are we? My parents came from Jamaica. I'm first-generation British. I'm the first person here who was born in this country. We're so far away from how it is in America, where there's generations of Black individuals who have been born in America. I'm the first. My daughter is the second. It's an interesting subject to talk about, which I think is relevant internationally. And I hope whoever listens to it can dive in deep to understand what I'm trying to do. I'm sorry I waffled. 

Courtney: No, not at all. Not at all. 

Melissa: Every time someone says waffled, I get hungry though.

VV Brown: Me too. 

Courtney: I literally ate waffles for breakfast this morning. 

Melissa: Oh, I want a waffle.

VV Brown: Me too. It's six o'clock and I haven't had dinner and I would love a waffle, like a sandwich waffle with something in it. I’m obsessed with TikTok by the way. 

Courtney: Sausage. Me too. 

VV Brown: The food. Oh my god. 

Courtney:  The recipes.

VV Brown: The food TikToks. 

Melissa: I know. 

VV Brown: So, let me tell you what I cooked last week. So, every Saturday now we try and do a TikTok recipe. 

Melissa/Courtney: Oh that's fun. 

VV Brown: And we try and do it with my kids so that they can learn a new thing. So, I've always wanted to know how to make sushi. Never done it before. So, I made sushi with my kids and we bought everything. We bought the rolling thing, the seaweed, all the tuna, everything to go in it. And we did it all together as a family. And ave you seen the machine where you squeeze it out? 

Courtney: No, but that sounds awesome. 

Melissa: I've always done it by hand. 

VV Brown: Oh my God. Let me tell you, anyone who's listening to this podcast, just please buy this instrument because it is well-designed, it's efficient, and it makes the most amazing sushi. It's like this thing where you pat the rice in, then you use this circular tool to push it down, so it's got like a curved, curvaceous thing at the bottom. You put your toppings in, you clip it together so it's a tube, then you push the thing through, and it's like a poo. It's doing poo. It kind of pushes, sorry.

Melissa: We've lost Courtney.

VV Brown: It comes out slowly like a poo, but then it's perfectly a cylinder cylinder shape. And then with the sharpest knife that's wet just like ah. Heaven. Love it. Love it. 

Courtney: I'm gonna be having sushi after this.

Melissa: Or you could leave it as a giant tube and eat it as a sushi-rito.

VV Brown: Oh,  totally, that is awesome. That’s funny. 

Courtney: Are you on TikTok? Are you gonna do anything in that arena to support this work that you're doing? You're doing so many different things. There's BookTok to tap into. 

Melissa: Or have you started a sushi-rito TikTok channel? Cause I would watch. 

Courtney: Just a whole different side of V V Brown.

VV Brown: Well, the thing is, I'm terrible at social media when it comes to my career because I'm just one of those artists who finds it really difficult. I love creative content, but I'm really bad at doing it and promoting myself like, “Listen to me!”. So, I'm working on getting better at my socials. I do have a TikTok page, but it's pretty shitty, if I be honest. And I wish I could be better. 

Courtney:  Courtney:too. I'm on TikTok, and I started like making the TikToks and I'm just like, this content will find whoever it's supposed to find, probably. It's like stories from the music industry. Totally bullshit. 

Melissa: It’s not bullshit. It's great. Everyone should follow Courtney. She talks about stories about working at MTV in the early 2000s and spills all the tea. 

VV Brown: Oh, I'm going to follow you. 

Courtney: I want to see from you on TikTok, I want some in-depth looks into the research you did in writing some of these songs. And the things that influenced them and what you were thinking about. And even — it would be cool, the stuff you're journaling about that you're talking about, that's not necessarily super personal, that you'd feel comfortable sharing, to see some of that. Show me the page, I want to see it.

VV Brown: I love that idea. I'll tell you what, the other thing that gets in the way of me doing this, and it shouldn't really be an excuse, but it's the kids. It's my kids. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but now that they're off the summer holidays, I have no excuses. And I love that idea. I really would love to do that. And to just focus in, that's so good, to focus in on just that, to give explanations on things. I'm going to start tonight, I promise.

Courtney: And you can tap into BookTok with reading lists of the stuff that you read to come up with these ideas that informed these ideas. 

VV Brown: I love that. 

Courtney: Also, there's a lot of conversation around bell hooks, and reading her work, and the impact that it's had on people. And I feel like we need someone who's present on TikTok to offer that voice instead of,  “I'm highlighting the book I read.” It would be so much more fun to hear those kinds of ideas and that kind of criticism from someone who exists now. We can tangibly see you and hear your thought processes. 

VV Brown: I love it. I'm not even joking. I'm going to start tonight. Go on TikTok tonight. 

Courtney: I'm following you immediately. 

VV Brown: Or tomorrow if it's in the States, like just, I swear, I promise. I love that idea. I love it. I love talking. 

Melissa: See, I personally just want your cooking videos. 

Courtney: I mean, I want those too. A little bit, I want those too. I want to see the sushi machine.

VV Brown: I will send you privately on email my personal one. And you'll see really funny things and family stuff. And sushi poo as well. 

Courtney: I’ll send you mine about how I started a feud between the Decembrists and Stephen Colbert on accident. 

Melissa: So, I just interviewed PJ Harvey. 

VV Brown: Wow. 

Melissa: And I know, thank you for the appropriate level of awe. That was wild. I feel like people just love finding out more aspects of artists that they love. Like the more that you can find someone who's like a real person and not a character but just like someone up on a pedestal who you have to admire everything that you do and just remember that they're absolutely a real person. People love that. I think more and more musicians are using social media that way just show like, yes, I am a creative genius with incredible political things to tell you. But also I have two kids and I like making sushi poos. I think people love that. 

VV Brown: I agree, I agree that people are craving authenticity and humanness, especially post-COVID. I think when we were all locked up there was like a sense of realization about how much we need each other and how much we want that kind of realness and that compassion and love and normality. Because when we went through that, everybody, whether you were a celebrity or not, everybody was put down to that place. Obviously, there were socioeconomic differences within that spectrum, but we were all kind of going through the same psychological thing, to some degree. It unifies our need for each other. 

Melissa: So, V V, I want you to be able to go eat your dinner. And I appreciate the fact that you came on during your dinnertime. So please tell people — your album's coming out October…? 

Courtney: 26th? 

VV Brown: Yes, two days after my 40th birthday. So it's two big milestones, an album after six years and my 40th, which I'm really scared about if I be honest. I shouldn't be, but I am. 

Melissa: You're scared of turning 40? 

VV Brown: Yeah, I am. I am. 

Courtney: It's great. 

Melissa: Are you worried your boobs are gonna fall off or something?

VV Brown: Oh no, listen, I'm already tripping up on my tits. Listen to me. Because I breastfed both of my kids until they were like two and a half, three. So, my breasts are already on the floor. 

Melissa: Just like the World Health Organization recommends. 

VV Brown: So, I don't care about that. I don't know. It's more about, I just want to find my most peaceful, authentic self. And I'm just hoping I'm heading towards that border moment. And so yeah, it's just scary as well. Just age. I'm gonna die sooner than I was yesterday.

Melissa: Eventually, yes. 

VV Brown:  But I had the same thing when I was 30, and I loved my 30s, so I'm sure it's gonna be the same. But yeah, anyway, I'm going off on a tangent. The album's out on October 26. And if you haven't heard of my music or what I do, please do check me out. And if you have heard of my music, please do check this out.

Melissa: Let's all make sure V V has an amazing birthday. By buying her album.

VV Brown: Please. Oh, no, I mean, I don't honestly, if you don't buy it, it's all right. Just follow the journey of — my label is going to kill me for saying that. The distributor is going to kill me. But I don't want any pressure on people. You know, with artists, we have to sell, sell, sell, promote, promote, promote. This is an experience. I tell you what, if you're in London and I will be doing a show in New York, come to our exhibition because next year we'll be curating an exhibition about Black Britishness. Come to that and be part of the experience. Follow us throughout my career. Come for the career. And also if you've got money, buy. 

Courtney: Yeah, if you've got money, we're going to include a link in our show notes to find the album. And if you just want to check it out, we'll include a link to stream this as well.

VV Brown: Yes, perfect. You said it way better than me. 

Melissa: So V V, where can people find you online? 

VV Brown: You can find me on my website. Which seems very dated saying that, vvbrown. com. Instagram is a @vvbrownofficial, TikTok is @vvbrownofficial, Twitter is @vvbrown, and just DM me. I always love to talk and chat and engage with anybody that's interested. And yeah, that's me. And Spotify, sorry, is @vvbrown as well. 

Melissa: Excellent, thank you so much.

Courtney: We so loved talking to you.

 

If you’ve always wondered about how to get a threesome together, whether or not you should date a Harvard grad, and if people who like music that is deeply challenging to the point of being unpleasant to listen to are worth dating, this episode with podcaster and author Amanda Montell offers some insights. It’s also spicy af with lots of frank talk about sex, hookups, and CBD gummies. We also got her to talk about cults and music, because hell yes cults use music to groom people. 

Rozzi calls this a common story, in which a medium ugly man rises up to win her heart only to unceremoniously leave her while gaslighting her about it. And while all of that was a bummer summer that ruined Natalie Imbruglia’s "Torn" for her, it’s the revenge she got that is the real story.

Sometimes an ex doesn’t just ruin a song for you — they betray you with a song. That was the case with Annick Adelle, whose first queer relationship involved a lot of Shania Twain and a little bit of an evil breakup. She also talks us through recording her surprise live album, and how it put a whole new spin on hecklers. 

The realization that your breakup wasn’t great can hit any time and any place. For Nabil Ayers, the president of Beggar’s Group U.S. and author of My Life in the Sunshine: Searching for my Father and Discovering My Family, it was in a gym locker room. The song? The Human League’s “Don’t You Want Me.” The breakup? He was the bad guy. 

Those high school breakups can be a real shock to the system. But have you ever had someone break up with you and announce they were cheating, all using a song? That’s what happened to Jamaican artist Naomi Cowan. Yes, she is the daughter of reggae greats Carlene Davis and Tommy Cowan. Once someone sends you Usher’s “Burn” as a statement of where they’re at in the relationship, all you can do is let it burn.

Getting into the dating game early made comedian Gianmarco Soresi realize how long life can really be — and how ruined a song can get. In his formative years, when Gianmarco still had a crush on Baby Spice and her pigtails, his second-grade girlfriend (and we’re using that term loosely) broke his heart. He's never heard the Spice Girls' "Wannabe" quite the same again.

It's a story as old as time: girl meets boy...in college. They fall in love. They talk about having sex. And that conversation absolutely ruins a song forever.