LINKS

Subscribe to Niko's podcast, Blue Eyes Crying in the Chip Aisle.

And get her newsletter, Anxiety Shark.

Read one of Courtney's old but not that old interviews with Death Cab.

TRANSCRIPT

Melissa: Hello, I'm Melissa Locker. 

Courtney: And I'm Courtney E. Smith. 

Melissa: And you are listening to Songs My Ex Ruined, the show where we talk about songs have been ruined by our exes. 

Melissa: Today on the podcast, we are thrilled to have Nico Stratis, music critic, podcast producer, and launching her very own show very, very soon. And you're gonna have to tell me the name because I remember half of it, not the other half.

Niko Stratis: I'm going for the longest name in podcasting. It's called Blue Eyes Crying by the Chips. It rolls off the tongue. It's a takeoff of the Willie Nelson song “Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain.” And it's also named for the time that I was crying in the chip aisle in the Shopper's Drug, which is a drugstore in Canada.

Courtney: This is a recurring theme for this podcast, crying in the grocery store.

Niko Stratis: That's why I made one, literally, 'cause so many people I know were like, “I've cried in public to weird songs too.” And I'm like, “Okay, we gotta talk about this.” 

Courtney: Nice. 

Melissa: Well, I've wanted to have you on the show for a very long time, but part of the reason I wanted to have you is 'cause I feel like your new show is kind of like a cousin to ours. And we wanted to have you on to talk about it — you know, we're all about family — and just kind of share the love.

Niko Stratis: I remember you telling me about this show way back when, and as soon as you told me, like I heard the name and I was like, “Yeah, 100%. That's a great idea for a show.” So very happy to be here. 

Melissa: There's a lot of crossover and people crying in the chip aisle, so yeah. 

Niko Stratis: One podcast leads to the other. That's what they say. 

Melissa: Exactly. So Nico, please tell us about a song that an ex has ruined for you. 

Niko Stratis: Well, it is largely the Band Death Cab for Cutie. I love Death Cab. And I've worked for a little bit as a producer on a podcast, and the last guest that I worked with was Ben Gibbard, who's a very lovely and very nice man and the whole time in my head I was like, I was thinking — 'cause “Steadier Footing” is the song.

Courtney: Okay… 

Niko Stratis:Which is a great song that I love. We did like six hours of recording with Ben Gibbard and the whole time I'm just thinking of the lyrics to “Steadier Footing” in my head. 

Courtney: Oh no.

Niko Stratis: Look, I have two different Death Cab songs with two different people, but they're very different reasons why they like affect me when I listen to them. One is because somebody's died. And the other is because somebody's become a very different person in my life. 

Melissa: Wow. Somebody's dead to you! 

Niko Stratis: Somebody's dead to me, yeah. I think I'm equally as dead to her so it's kind of works out both ways. 

Courtney: Lot of grieving either way though. That's like pretty sad, both ways.

Niko Stratis: I mean, I kind of only grieve one way to be perfectly honest. It was a very weird scenario that has led to a very weird connection in my life now. Like do you have anybody in your life that you used to date that is now like a wellness influencer on Instagram?

Courtney: No. Amazingly not. 

Melissa: Absolutely not. 

Niko Stratis: This is not, this isn't as common in occurrence as I would've thought it might be. 

Courtney: I've dated too many heterosexual men, and that's not really their arena. 

Niko Stratis: Not yet, but I feel like they're slowly moving into that arena. 

Courtney: There are some. I just followed like this Jake Cohen guy for his recipes and he's clearly a health and wellness influencer. Yeah, they're moving in. 

Niko Stratis: He's getting there. I feel like this is an untapped avenue for men is to become wellness grifters on the internet. They should really get on that because there's, look, there's money to be made. They're leaving money on the floor. 

Courtney: There really is. So let's Lululemon our way back to your story, though. What's the deal with the song? 

Niko Stratis: When I was younger,  I'm old now, I'm 41, but when I was younger, I was in my 20s —I'm from the Yukon originally. So I was living in the Yukon at the time, and myself and all of my friends were alcoholics. 

Courtney: That's how my 20s were also.Yes. Familiar. 

Niko Stratis: Yeah, I've been sober for a few years now myself, but I had a friend that owned a bar and it was on the corner of the street. When you're in your 20s and your friend owns a bar, you never drink anywhere else. That's like, this is your spot. 

Courtney: Oh yeah. 

Niko Stratis: And he had this bartender that he had hired and I didn't know her. And I was drinking there all the time when I wasn't working. I was — sorry, I'm losing my voice. I did morning radio this morning and you can tell it's starting to affect to me. So, I'm drinking all the time at this bar and I'm going there every day after work. I was working in construction at the time. I'm a construction worker by trade. I don't work in that anymore because I'm a trans woman. And it turns out trans women in construction industry are not like simpatico in the ways that you might think. So, I'm drinking there all the time, and I'm drinking with this bartender that he's hired, this woman I've never met. And we're connecting a lot about, we're talking a lot about music and stuff. And she makes me a mix tape. And the next time I go in to get blackout drunk right after work, she like gives me this mix tape. And then she's like, do you wanna go listen to it in my car? My car's parked out — she had a Chrysler LeBaron parked behind the bar. And I was like, yes. And I learned that day how uncomfortable it is to make out a someone in a Chrysler LeBaron. 

Melissa: Was this front seat? Back seat? 

Niko Stratis: Front seat, passenger seat. 

Melissa: Okay. Stick shift?

Courtney: “Passenger Seat,” which is also a Death Cab song from Transatlanticism? So…

Niko Stratis: Yeah, all roads lead to Ben Gibbard in this story, I feel like. And then we just like, started seeing each other. She had made me this mix tape. We made each other a lot of tapes 'cause music was like our connective tissue. We talked a lot about music. And she was living in this area that was sort of up the hill from where I lived in Whitehorse. And the way the seasons work in the Yukon is in the summertime, the sun never goes down. So if you're an alcoholic, which everybody, that I knew is, you sometimes lose track of what day it is. Because if the sun never goes down, you don't know if it's night or morning at a certain point it really throws you off.

Courtney: Oh, wow. That's so weird. 

Niko Stratis: It really throws you. Now like, I don't live there anymore. I live in Toronto now. And when I go back home, like I went home at Christmas last year and in the wintertime the opposite happens, which is that the sun almost never comes up. It's up for like four or five hours a day. And that really affects you. 

Melissa: Do you drink more when it's sunny all day or when it's dark all day? 

Niko Stratis: The way you drink changes. I know that sounds like an avoidance of the question, but it is like, it is a fundamentally different kind of drinking. Like in the summertime you're drinking 'cause you're having a good time and you want to stay up all night. And in the winter you're drinking sadness alcohol, which are like, it's slightly different. And like, the attitude with people changes and the way that you get into fights with people changes. It is an interesting kind of alcoholism that changes with the seasons with a lot of people. I mean like, I'm very glad to be out of that cycle for a million reasons. But this particular song sort of factors in, it was like the the fall. And in the fall the sun kind of starts to go down a little bit, but not fully. And it is like you are getting a little bit of night, but not a lot. And I had gone up to this house where she was staying. And she was like making a mixtape while we were hanging out and having a drink. And she wasn't working that night. So we're like, we're able to like drink together at night. And we're like sitting out on the front patio and you know, we're talking a lot about music. And in my brain I'm like, I've never felt so like, like connected to someone on this like artistic level. Like most of the people I've dated in my life, I haven't had this, like, we don't talk about art and music and culture and all this stuff the way that I do with this person. And I wasn't able to put it together partially because I was in a period of grief because a former partner of mine had died of cancer right around this time. And I was, made a mess and the process of grieving was really difficult for me 'cause I'd never had to do that before. This person and I hadn't been dating when she passed away, but we had before. And we'd had this sort of strange thing where we almost got back together but then when I found out she had cancer, I got nervous about it. And it was a really difficult time and I never really got to fully express a lot of things to her before she passed away. So, I sort of was carrying a lot of this and I didn't know about going to therapy at this time.it wasn't a thing that people weren't like, “Hey, if you're having a trouble grieving or processing all these complex emotions, you can pay someone money and they will help you.” No one told me that specific fact and I was like, “What if I can drink one bottle of brown liquor, and then maybe a couple more and see what happens?” But we were having this really great night and in my head I'm like, I was like breaking through this sort of period of, “Oh, I can connect with somebody else and I can feel these things and stuff.” And then like a day later, we had this really great night and it was, I just, I very vividly remember sitting out on this patio, we're smoking cigarettes, there's records playing in the house that are being recorded to tape, and then the next day she calls me on my flip phone. We're in the flip phone era of our lives. And tells me that it's not working out and all that sort of stuff. And like she just wants to be friends And I'm sort of left confused as to why I think I wasn't able to like connect on a lot of levels with her the way that she wanted me to. And I wasn't fully like listening to that. And I was like, really despondent of 'cause I was still grieving this other thing. And then I'm like processing all this. And the whole time, because “Steadier Footing” was the song that I distinctly remember when we were sitting out on this patio smoking these cigarettes. And I was like, “This song, I love this Death Cab song.” And it's one of those songs that people don't talk about. Like when they talk about Death Cab, they're like, you know, they talk about Transaticism or they talk about the later stuff. They talk about “I Will Follow You Into the Dark” which is the song that reminds me of my ex that passed away. 

And like, you know, they talk about all this other stuff, but I feel like “Steadier Footing” is such a great son. And it's sort of the lead into when Death Cap kind of discovered the band they were going to be. This is off The Photo Album and I feel like The Photo Album is their first really great record, right? And part of that is because of band, part of that is because of Chris Walla, like, and the two of them working together, really sort of figuring out this is who we are as a band. And they grew from there, right? Like, Transatlanticism is this big growth but I like The Photo Album a lot and I feel like it gets like buried. I have this theory about thesis albums and thesis songs by bands, where there's like one particular like moment that explains a lot of both where they were and where they're going. Does that make sense? 

Melissa: Yeah, yeah. Tell us more, though

Niko Stratis:. Well, I've long been sort of thinking of this idea of like an album that has the lead track is the thesis statement because I I write a lot of essays, so I think a lot in thesis statements. I think a lot in, what are we drawing back to? Not every record has this, but I think some do. Like I think about the song “Drive” on Automatic for the People. 

Niko Stratis: Drive is this very like kind of haunting song, but it's also kind of beautiful. And it is  not about sadness. It's about like you need to push yourself, you need to move, you need to discover who you are. You need to move out of the parameters that you're sort of box yourself into. And a lot of what Automatic for the People is this sort of same thing. It is both a look back and a look forward. 

Melissa: See for me, it'd be Out of Time. This is not an R.E.M. debate podcast, but… 

Courtney: It could be though. And I'm on your team, Niko 'cause I think that is like a defining album in R.E.M.’s oeuvre.  

Niko Stratis: They're one of those bands that I think really depends on where and when you got into them too, right? Like Automatic was the first record of theirs that I really got into. Like I knew who they were, but Automatic for the People was the first R.E.M. record that I bought where I was like, “This is a record that I am buying because this is a band that I like and people do not like when I tell them what I think “Man On the Moon” is the best R.E.M. song. 

Melissa: I think I saw this blowing up on Twitter. 

Niko Stratis: Sometimes people are…

Melissa: They get so mad. 

Niko Stratis: People will like message me privately and be like, “I agree with you. I don't want to agree with you in public, because people do not share this opinion.” It's hard on a record that also has “Nightswimming,” it's really hard to be like, “Man on the moon” is the best R.E.M. song.

Courtney: Icould really get into a fight with you about that, but I think that's the case if you try to define the best song of any bands catalog, that's there's gonna be a fight. 

Niko Stratis: Well, and I think that this idea of best is less important than like — because I think best is so subjective, right? It's like, well, what's best for you? 

Courtney: And the answer is “Country Feedback,” thank you for asking. 

Niko Stratis: Wow, okay.

Melissa: No, I totally agree. Like Out of Time and like some of like the lesser played songs are just, oh my God, they're beautiful. 

Niko Stratis: lI ove that. We are slowly shifting. There's a bunch of us that did, uh, Luke O'Neil's newsletter, Welcome to Hell World and we all chose five R.E.M. songs. And I chose my five, and “Man on the Moon” was my number one. I had two Automatic songs 'cause I did “Man On the Move” and “Drive” and I wanted to put “Nightswimming.” And I was like, I cannot choose three songs from Automatic for the People from my top five.

Courtney: I mean, you could have chosen “Shiny Happy People” and that would be more objectionable.

Niko Stratis: I didn't and somebody wrote me to get mad at me for not liking ““Shiny Happy People.” I actually don't really like that song. 

Melissa: No, I don't like that song. All it drives me crazy either. 

Courtney: I don’t really like that song either.

Niko Stratis: It's too, it feels jokey. It feels like like Michael Stipe making fun of himself and it really throws me out. 

Melissa: The thing like kind of controversial opinions, I know everyone loves Transaticism and it's like 20th anniversary but for me it's, We Have the Facts. That was the album of Death Cab’s that just —  I think it was because I had just moved to New York. I was listening to it just nonstop, and it just became like the soundtrack of my first year in New York.

And it just is so tied in with being in a new place, being a new person. So, I've been on a one woman campaign to get them to do that entire album in performance sometime live. 

Courtney: Good luck. 

Melissa:  I'm working on it. , I'm gonna wear them down eventually.

Courtney: Wait, so we have veered from your story again. This person, um, we, we left it with her calling you and breaking up over a  flip phone. 

Niko Stratis: Yeah, and I remember listening to “Steadier Footing” after, 'cause it was the song that had meant so much the night before. And I was like, you know what happened? And I'm in my head about it. And then we sort of go our own way and she's eventually starts dating somebody else but we still sort of like hook up on the side. And we have this like intimate relationship as friends with each other where her relationship with this guy that she's dating isn't going well, and she's talking to me about it.

Courtney: Oh, that's bad. 

Niko Stratis: And in my head, I’m like, “You didnt me all that much.” You know, I'm in one of those scenarios where you're like, oh, cool your boyfriend's a nightmare person that I, that I very much do not like., 

Melissa: Those are the worst. Also, it's a very small town, right? 

Niko Stratis: Yeah, very small town. 

Melissa:  So you didn't really have options?

Niko Stratis:No. She worked at the bar I drank it all the time. 

Courtney: Yeah, you couldn't get away.  I understand.

Courtney: So pretty much you ruined this song for yourself is what happened. Like it was associated with a nigh,t and you played it and, felt all your feelings, essentially.

Niko Stratis: Wwhen I listen to it now, a like, I can taste the cigarette, you know, like even though like the flavor of cigarettes has changed and I have continued to smoke them on and off over the years, but like I can see the patio, I, I know what kind of wine we were drinking. Like I have all of these sensory emotions. And so eventually this person and I sort of like drifted in and out of hooking up and not, and then eventually she started dating this new gentleman, and one night she came over to my house — I was living in a different apartment at this point. And she needs to talk to me. She comes over to my house and I'm playing records in my house and we're drinking and we're smoking, we're talking about music,. And she's confiding in me that she's worried 'cause she's dating this guy and she feels herself sort of slipping away and sort of like becoming a different person in the relationship with this guy — which is like a thing that happens. Like I've, I've known plenty of people who have like changed in a relationship or they've become a different person or whatever. And, and I said, I'm really sorry to hear that and, and because I like the person that you are. And you know, we were like, we had been close and we had been good friends and we had been all these things., she just kept telling me this stuff. And then eventually she made it advance on me and we, like, we kissed once or twice and then I was like, you know, I don't think this is a smart move on any of our parts. You're with this person. You tell me you love them. You're worried about the state of the relationship. I don't want to like get in the way of this. So I sort of headed that off at the pass and they eventually got married.

Courtney: What? Whoa, this took a turn. 

Niko Stratis: I know, right? Like. This was sort of the last time her and I ever really sort of hung out privately. And then after this she sort of like really got into the relationship. She worked at the hospital and my mom is chronically ill, and she spends a lot of time in the hospital, so I spent a lot of time in the hospital. And because I would fix the doors at the hospital as well, because I worked in automatic door repair for a long time, and I ran a company in the Yukon that did that and, and so I saw her all the time and we would sort of talk at work or I would see her when she was like looking after my mom And, but it was different. We never really had the same connection ever again, even though I was like, oh, this is my friend, blank. Just in case she listens to this podcast, what if she does? And she emails me and she's very mad about it? 

Courtney: Maybe she'll just send you a link to the song on YouTube and then you'll know.

Niko Stratis: I mean, she'll probably link me to like some oils or something like that 'cause this is where the story goes is eventually I noticed that her Insta — like now we're in the era of Instagram. Her and I haven't really spoken a lot and when I transitioned her partner was really mean to me in public. I was like standing outside of my, my old office in the Yukon with the person I was seeing, at the time, on the street and he walked by me and said, how's life on the pink team now? And slapped me in the chest really hard and like just super fun, normal thing to do. This guy was also formally like I was, I had been friends with this person. I had known himL like he used to book shows when I used to do music booking in town. Like him and I had like worked together a lot and like, and I thought that we were okay. And then in it was like this one moment when we were like, oh, we're not okay anymore. You know, like our relationship has shifted and then this person that I had formally dated I noticed her Instagram presence started to change and it was like a lot of exercise stuff. And she had had kids now, and now she was like, I'm an exercise mama. And I was like, you were like, a drinking indie girl that was obsessed with how you didn't like that Isaac Brock got sober and fat and happy because you liked him when he was really depressed and fucked up. Uh and now all of a sudden she's exercise. mama. 

Melissa: Did she try and sell you leggings? 

Niko Stratis: I mean, no, because she, I don't think she's a super huge fan of the changes in my life also, but… 

Courtney: Oh, okay. 

Niko Stratis: Then she's like, she's selling, facial products and stuff, and then she's selling essential oils ,and then she's working out, and then she's only eating like a very specific diet that gets targeted to you if you go on Pinterest too many times. And like, she's falling down all these rabbit holes. 

Melissa:  Yeah, the MLM rabbit hole. 

Niko Stratis: Yeah, and I just started to see these red flags everywhere. And then in recent years with the pandemic, she became like a hard line anti-vaxxer and like was like protesting the vaccine and this man that she's married is like running as an independent because the conservative party's not conservative enough for him. I just keep thinking about this person that I was smoking cigarettes out on a patio listening to Death Cab with, arguing about art and culture. And you know, she was very left leaning at the time and was very liberal and very open-minded and very all these things. I think about that moment, too, as she's in my house and we're listening to records and we listen to Death Cab and we talked about “Steadier Footing.” And it is so jarring to just think of the duality of people. And I understand that people probably have that with me, that dated me before I transitioned. You know, where it's like, oh, I knew Niko when but now she's this and I don't know this, I don't trust this, I don't like this, whatever. Like, I fully understand that people are probably like that with me. And this person probably is too, I'm sure. Look, if you're protesting the vaccine in a town of 30,000 people, you're probably not super up for, you know, trans rights. So I'm assuming she's not like the most comfortable with my life now. But I still like that song. But if I'm gonna listen to it, I also have to like be like, okay, I have to think about this person. I have to think about these moments. It's never like, I'm gonna put this song on because I like it. It's like, I'm gonna put this song on and I'm gonna think through some shit. And that's how that song kind of got ruined for me, 'cause it's no, it's no longer so simple, you know?

Courtney/Melissa: Yeah.

Courtney: Should we talk about Death Cab a little bit more? I mean, this is the 20th anniversary of the album that you feel is not their most significant album for you personally, Niko. 

Niko Stratis: Death Cab is such a funny band for me over the course of my life 'cause, you know, they're one of those bands that like, I really loved them for a while and they meant a lot to me for a while. And I was like, you know, when's the next record coming out? And then, as with a lot of bands, I just kind of started to fall off. And like I know they've continued to put out records and I think Narrow Stairs was maybe the last album of theirs I bought. And I remember liking some of it, but I remember getting through it and just not feeling connected to it the same way. And just feeling like maybe my time with this band as a band that is still releasing records, maybe that's fading and maybe that's fine. Like learning to let things go feels like a very Death Cab for Cutie lesson that I think I was taught. And in fact, this is kind of partially the lesson inherent in “Steadier Footing” and so much of what follows is: “Steadier Footing” is very much the story of this person sitting outside after a party and sort of grappling with like the sort of change around the narrator, and what has been before and what it's coming after. And that immediate sitting and talking and feeling like you're on the precipice of something. And it sort of feels like that's what Death Cab was doing. Andso much of them, I feel like, is preparing their audience to eventually be able to let them go. Which is a really hard thing to do with a band that means a lot to you is learning to be like, it doesn't always have to be for me. That doesn't mean that earlier stuff means any less. When the podcast that I was a producer on for a bit, Bandsplain, he was talking about Teenage Fanclub. And Teenage Fanclub is one of those bands where like, those first few records are fucking great. I've like listened to new era, Teenage Fanclub and I'm like, who even is this band? And it's funny like this idea of the thesis of a song, of a record, of whatever is like in this idea of like learning to let someone go. It is an interesting thing that the song that like is kind of ruined for me. It's about learning to let someone go.

Melissa: I'm gonna get real vulnerable here for a second.So, I really have watched like every single Hallmark movie ever made, and I always have a massive problem with these shows or with these storylines where it's like someone comes back to their small town and then they fall in love with this person they haven't seen in 30 years who they've always loved. And I'm like, bullshit. There is no way one of those people is not, you know, in an MLM, one of those people is not an anti-vaxxer. It's like, yeah, they may have this great memories from 30 years ago when they were, you know, making out behind the bleachers during a pep rally. But there's absolutely no way that they have evolved, especially if one has moved to a big city and one has  stayed in the small town, there's like no way that they have not evolved in very different ways that is going to blow up at some point. Most likely in the voting booth, possibly, ou know, just at the doctor's office. I'm like, no, absolutely not. 

Niko Stratis: Yeah, I mean, small towns can really eat you alive if you're not careful, I know a lot of people that still live in my small town and they're doing great and they're surviving and they're making it work. but vast majority of them, you know, they got married and they got a house and they had a kid and they slowed down their life, the life we used to live, which was like partying all the time and going out and swinging for the fences at every opportunity. They slowed all that stuff down. And all their friends had kids and they were like, this is our lives now. We have kids, we take them to soccer, we go to baseball, we do all these things. We still go for drinks, but not nearly as often. And you know, their lives, they downshifted, but they never, were like, Hey, what's on the other side of the street? What if I veer into oncoming traffic and drive that way? That's like the two ways that you can go if you live in a small town and you're surrounded by the people that have seen you grow up. Part of the reason why I had to leave was like everybody thought they knew who I was and then when I transitioned it was like, oh no, I'm not. When everybody knows who you are, whether you know their name or not, it, that's a really difficult process to manage. Like it's just untenable long term to like fundamentally change who you are and also admit that you were lying to everybody. Like ultimately at the end of the day, I was lying to everybody about who I was. That's a crass way of putting it and it's like the bluntest way of saying that's the situation. But yeah, I know, I think about this small town idea a lot. 

Melissa: So you're saying you're not gonna recreate a Hallmark movie plot line next time you go back to Yukon?

Niko Stratis: I might, thought. But what if she's like running a small inn and I'm like moving there and I come from Big City Hotel dot Inc? 

Courtney: Yes, you're also gonna have to elevate the soundtrack. The stock music they use in those things is maybe not gonna cut it.

Niko Stratis: Yeah, I know. I need a lot more strings, I feel like. Is it still like very orchestral in the soundtracks for those things? 

Courtney: I feel like it's library music at this point. The same kind of music you get in reality TV shows. 

Niko Stratis: Some of that stuff is good though. I feel like reality TV sometimes get a hit. 

Courtney: Some of it's very snarky. Yeah, it’s true.

Niko Stratis: I wonder who does a lot of that stuff. 'Cause like you watch like Below Deck and sometimes it's like, oh, you're having a little fun with this.

Courtney: I guess I'm going to tell you about my Death Cab-ness. 

Niko Stratis: Please do.

Courtney: I'm a  big fan. 

Niko Stratis: I… yeah, please do. Please tell me. 

Courtney: I wasn't a huge fan in the The Photo Album era, but I was very devoted to indie rock and had this perch from which I was swinging, which was working at MTV and being really into indie rock. And I remember when the video for “A Movie Script” ending came in and it was the first video Death Cab ever made. And everybody's like, what is this band name? Like, who are these people? And I'm just like, it's Death Cab for Cutie. They're very important. You should accept the video. It's fine. And then I started talking to Barsuk after that because I now had an excuse to, right? Like, I was constantly, why can I talk to someone at Kill Rock Stars? Why could I talk to Barsuk? Why could I talk to Saddle Creek? What could we do to be friends?

Melissa: Those are all record labels for people who are not quite music nerds.

Courtney: So, I got a copy of Transatlacism probably six months before it came out and I thought it was so good that I got on a plane and flew to Seattle to like meet everybody. 'Cause I was just like, this is incredible. And that's how I became Death Cab's person at MTV and like architected their entire career there, which was weird. When I became too tied in with them was Plans. And at one point, there was a brand new president of MTV in like 2005, and he'd been working on mtvU, which was the college station, and we did a bunch of stuff together. And it's me, and him ,and the head of music programming, a woman named Amy, in a meeting talking about this deck we've put together. And Death Cab is like the first big band that we're all like making this bet on together. Amy was newly promoted to. And the president of MTV, whose name was Stephen, but looks at both of us and goes, “So this is gonna work, right? Like, this is gonna be a hit.” 'Cause he needs it to be a hit. It's his first thing. And I just go, “Ummmmm…” And that's the moment that I saw my entire career flash before my eyes. I'm just like, “Uh, I don't know.” And Amy's just like, she saw the look on my face. She's like, “Yeah, it's gonna be fine. It's gonna work. It's, yeah, it's great.” And it was, it worked out great. I'm so happy that they had a, you know, radio hit and got this big fan base, even though it caused them a lot of tumult and, you know, they had to grapple with the changing fans that had been happening since The O.C. But, Yeah, it was so stressful. Like that wasn't the most stressful moment of like, I really love this band and I really want to back them. But, uh, I don't know. 

Niko Stratis: That shit blew up. Like… 

Courtney: Yeah. 

Niko Stratis: like “I Will Follow You Into the Dark” was everywhere.

Courtney: That song. It's so weird to me, the way that's become universal, and I've never had a conversation with Ben about this, but I want to. 'Cause I know which ex-girlfriend that's about. Like that whole album is about her. She's great. But I mean, I also wanna ask her about it. I'm just like, “How do you guys feel about this song, about this very intense song about being so in love that I want to die when you die, is now the song that people consider, like so many couples, it's their song?” 

Melissa: I was scrolling through Spotify and I loved to find like really weird playlists and I found one called like Twilight Vibes.

Niko Stratis: Oh, wow. 

Melissa:  And it had like three different Death Cab songs and I was just like, oh, this is great. 

Niko Stratis: Which Death Cab songs?

Melissa: I'm trying to remember. I know, it definitely was “I Will Follow You Into the Dark.” Becaus , you know, go off.

Courtney: Obviously, yeah.

Niko Stratis: Obviously, the gothiest Death Cab song. 

Courtney: That is really inspired by, um, Woody….

Niko Stratis/Melissa: From Toy Story? 

No, no, no. Sorry. It's inspired by, um… 

Niko Stratis: Woddy Harrison?

Courtney: No, hold on. 

Niko Stratis: Woody Guthrie. 

Courtney: Yeah, Woody Guthrie. 

Melissa: I think I've run through all the Woodys I know.

Niko Stratis: Yeah, those are all the Woodys I'm aware of. These are all the Woodys I know I know.

Courtney: Hold on, hold on. I'm gonna get there. Woody Allen. He was a huge Woody Allen fan, back in the day.

 Melissa: I don't know him. 

Courtney: Yeah, I think that's over now. 

Niko Stratis: Yeah, yeah, which Allen? We don’t know him.

Melissa: Yeah, I don’t know him numhm uh uh no.

Courtney: Aesthetically inspired by, yeah. Sorry. Go on, Melissa.

Melissa: Oh, no, I was done. I love the idea that Twilight Vibes is,like the hot topic of goth playlist. 

Courtney: So many kids know about Beach House because of Twilight. Like it's wild. 

Niko Stratis: Right. It is interesting how TV and movies kind of work that way though, and it's like a thing that kind of fell away for a while and I hope it's kind of coming back. Like I think about this with The Bear a lot and obviously that's not for kids, but like the  music in The Bear is great and used really well and like, and it really sets the world. 

Melissa: It's so expensive. Every time I watch it I'm just like, “Oh my god!”

Niko Stratis:, oh yeah, I know. Licensing is so hard now.

Courtney: As I watched the whole second season of The Bear, I was like, oh, they know me/ Like they did these needle drops with me in mind. It's extremely personal to me. 

Niko Stratis: Not only do they know you, they clearly know Jeff Tweedy 'cause they're like, hey, can we get a lot of Wilco songs? 

Courtney: And he was like, yeah, sure. 

Niko Stratis:  Yeah.

Melissa: But, um, Niko, I did want to talk to you more about your podcast and what, whatever you're willing to share with us about like what's coming up, who we can expect, , when do I get to come on and talk about crying in the yogurt aisle? 

Niko Stratis: I think we've got an email chain started about this, and if not, we will shortly. The show's called Blue Eyes Crying by the Chips. It's about beautiful songs that you love and funny and weird places that you've cried in public listening to them, whether incidentally or by accident. I had been kicking the idea of a music podcast around for a while, as you know, 'cause we had talked about an idea that I had like last year. And the day that Schad O'Connor died, I was, I was doing a Zoom call with my friend Marissa Moss, who's a great writer. She wrote a book called Her Country that came out last year. She’s great. We have a little writer's group where we like check in on how we're, 'cause I'm writing a couple books and she's working on her new book. And just before we got on the call, I got a text from the radio show at CBC here in Canada that was like, “Do you wanna come on the radio and talk about Sinead O'Connor tomorrow?” And I said, yes, not knowing why. And then we were like 30 minutes into our Zoom call and I just remember stopping the conversation we were having and I was like, “Fuck, Sinead O'Connor died.” And Marissa was like, “What?” And I was like, “Sinead O'Connor died. That's why they want me to do the radio tomorrow. I thought they just wanted me to talk about Sinead, which I was down for, but it's because she passed away.” And I agreed to do the show and I was like, I should listen to Sinead O'Connor 'cause I haven't listened to it in a little bit. And I walked to the grocery store down the street from us, and I was in the chip aisle and I had my like, prescription sunglasses on. I had my big headphones on. And I'm listening to “Last Day of Our Acquaintance.” It is a beautiful song, right? And this is exactly what happened to me. And I'm thinking about Sinead O'Connor being dead and I'm holding a bag of chips, and I'm like, I like, I'm clearly crying. Like, not like sobbing, but definitely like tears are like escaping underneath my sunglasses. And this woman comes around the corner and like sees me crying in the aisle and it's like this whole kind of awkward thing. And I don't wanna let her know that's what's going on. And I'm like, what if she doesn't know? And how she learns that Sinead O'Connor's dead is 'cause she saw some 6’2” trans woman crying in the chip aisle, you know? And like, what a way to find out the news. You know, you wanna get that from legitimate sources, not just some strange trans lady in the chip aisle. So…

Courtney: You wanna see it on your Instagram feed, so… 

Niko Stratis: Yeah, exactly. You want it to be targeted to you from Apple News that did a point time when Apple News hits your feed. So the first guest on my show told me a story about crying on the subway, listening to Phoebe Bridgers. And I did this thing where I, like soft launched an idea. I posted about it on Twitter to see if anybody thought it was funny, because I don't have enough self-esteem and this is how I decide if anything works or not. A bunch of people replied right away with like songs they would choose, and I was like, okay, so maybe this idea works. So I reached out to some friends of mine and recorded a couple. Now, Sadie Dupuis, who I know was on your show recently was on, Josh Goleman, comedian. His wife Maris — I talked to Josh one day, I talked to Meris the next. Nice, uh, trying to narrow down 

Melissa: Nice, those are both two people I really want on this show too.

Niko Stratis: Oh, that would be great. I'm trying to narrow down a date with Ted Leo 'cause he had a great story. He like, commented on my post andwas like talking about being pulled over by the cops, crying and listening to Thin Lizzy. And I was like, I need to hear all of this story. 

Melissa: That's amazing. Well, maybe we can drop an episode into our feed.

Niko Stratis: I would be honored. I would love that very much. And I will have both of you on if you would, if you would like to. 

Courtney: I have to really like try to narrow it down. I've cried to so many songs in public.

Niko Stratis: Well, I mean, look, you can come back, and you can do more than one. Like maybe we do a joint, maybe we do the first.two guesser. You know, maybe we try that format. I don't know. As you can, as you can tell from the way that my brain works, I very much go on tangents. So,  I have four questions and they stabilize the conversation and then I listen back to a couple episodes and I'm like, where the fuck are those four questions? What am I talking about? But it gets there in the end. 

Melissa: Um, well, I cannot wait to hear! 

Courtney: Me too. We'll smash that subscribe immediately.

Niko Stratis: September 1st. Blue Eyes Crying by the Chips with Niko Stratis.

Melissa: So Niko, where can people find you online? Take part in your very important polls? 

Niko Stratis: Yeah, my various polls about crying or McDonald's? My two main interests these days.  I'm at Nico Stratus on, you know, X and Instagram and BlueSky, and everywhere that my name can be, I'm there. I forget about most of them most of the time. I check Twitter 'cause I'm addicted to the nightmare. Addicted to the shindig, you know, can't stop. nicostratas.com is my website I always forget to update. I have a newsletter, it's called Anxiety Shark, anxietyshark.ca, and I write an essay in it every week. 

Courtney: It was so nice to meet you. Thank you for doing it. Yeah, this was great. 

Niko Stratis: Thank you so much for asking me to do this.