LINKS

You're obviously going to want to subscribe to *IN SYNC — it's for music and TV lovers and it's so cool.

Courtney and Rachel had an off-mic talk about the music in The Handmaid's Tale and Scandal. No, you can't hear it but you can click those two links for Courtney's writing about them.

And read Rachel on Sia, Spin's 2014 artist of the year.

TRANSCRIPT

Melissa: Hello, I'm Melissa Locker. 

Courtney: And I'm Courtney E. Smith 

Melissa: And you are listening to Songs My Ex Ruined, the show where we talk about songs have been ruined by our exes. 

Courtney: This week we're joined by Rachel Brodsky, who is a seasoned music writer, and we love her work. You can read her on Stereogum. She's also recently launched a new podcast Rachel, tell us the name of it. 

Rachel: The podcast is called *IN SYNC, spelled with the asterisk. Just just like the band, but, just like the band but not just like the band. Please don't sue. I-N-S-Y-N-C. 

Courtney: I listened to the the first episode and we're gonna talk about that a little later on. But since this is a podcast where we really don't mess around, we get right to the point, tell us about a song that an ex ruined for you?

Rachel: Yeah, love to just cut right to the quick. And this didn't actually take a lot of thought, like the answer came to me immediately. And it's like kind of a story of like a loss of innocence. Like, I'm such a romantic and I have always been one. And when I was a sophomore in college, my favorite band was, and, and to some extent still- this was very college-y for me was Broken Social Scene. So the song that has ruined for me is Broken Social Scene’s “Lover’s Spit.”

Courtney: Oh, you know who else has that in common with you is probably Leslie Feist.

Rachel: Uh, yeah. 

Melissa: And this is what happens when you get three music journalists in a room. They start trading hot gossip.

Courtney:  Yeah, we'll circle back to that but tell us your story, Rachel. 

Rachel: Well, the, that's funny cause the first time I ever saw Broken Social Scene was with Feist, and she opened for them. And then when “Lover’s Spit” came on, she and Kevin Drew did like a slow dance on stage. 

Courtney: The good old days. 

Rachel: The good old days. But this like involves a little bit of a backstory because when I was that age and in that year of school, I was very involved in the radio station in college. We got a lot of free tickets to shows. So, a bunch of us would drive into either Philly or New York to see like, any and all band that was popping off in like the year 2006 and on. And one of our crew members, who was not actually like a DJ or involved at the station but he was kind of in the circle and he was always with us, and there was definitely like a crush — reciprocated — between the two of us. And we went to New York to see Broken Social Scene for the second time. And the bad timing of this is that I was dating somebody else, but it was a very new relationship. Like it wasn't serious, but I technically was not available. But I was sort of not advertising my relationship, because I kind of still liked this other guy. And we were all at the show, and then before they launched into “Lover’s Spit,” Kevin Drew is like, “Now I want everyone to turn to the person, to their right and tell them, if you're with someone here tonight, if you're dating them or you want to date them, like tell them how you feel.” 

Courtney: Oh, that's so Kevin Drew, by the way, but also like, wow. 

Rachel: And I just had this moment of like, “Oh shit.” And, my now ex kind of tapped me on the shoulder. He was standing behind me and he kind of tapped me on the shoulder and he was like, “I really like you.” And I didn't know what to say because like, we’re in this huge crowded room. The feelings are reciprocated, but it's complicated. And like it's a show going on, and I can't like tell him the nuance of the situation. I think he was expecting like this big romantic moment and like I wanted to give it to him but couldn't. So all I did was, I just gave him a hug and then we drove home in silence. Because we had more friends with us. Like we weren't alone. And then I had to call him like that night as I was like sitting on my dorm room steps. And was like, “Hey, I really feel the same, but I'm technically seeing someone and I know this isn't what you wanna hear.” And, luckily the person I was seeing like dumped me in the next month. And then we all gather at another show, it was an Animal Collective show in Philly. And this time it was like, okay, it's on. And I was like 19. And I'd never really been in a serious relationship. I didn't really date anyone in high school. I was very like innocent and very like just bright-eyed and enthusiastic about everything, and still am, but like with the slight jadedness that comes with age at this point. But I was just like so head over heels in love with this person and I thought, “Oh my God, like we're so similar.” And I had all of these like, this is probably more story than you bargained for, but like I had a lot of internal conflict at the time about should I be dating Jewish people versus not. Because my parents really wanted me to date Jewish people, and it was just like a narrative that I grew up with. And, and he was Jewish and he came from a nice Jewish family. We went to the same school. He was going to be a dentist. He is actually a dentist now. And I was just like, oh my God, he's my bashert. Like, meaning my like forever person. And I was just fully starry-eyed and so just like beyond happy. And like he was the first person I ever said I love you to and vice versa. And I just thought we're going to run into the sunset and like get married one day. And this is where the story kind of turns, because over time now it's like, I joke that he musically catfished me because I had no idea at the time that he's actually a huge jam band person. I had no idea, but I was really trying to like play a cool. You look like you wanna say something Melissa?

Melissa: Yeah, no, I just feel like bands like Animal Collective and Broken Social Scene, Built to Spill, they're gateway drugs to jam band fans. Where they're like, “Oh, we're indie, but also we are gonna end our shows with 20 minutes of guitar noodling and you can just sit there and take it or you can just accept it. And then we'll see you at the Phish show down the road.”

Rachel: I never thought about it that way, but I see that reasoning so clearly. Cause I've seen articles more recently that like make the case for the indie/jam band crossover and they cite bands like the War on Drugs and Kurt Vile and, and that whole world. And I can totally see that, but like, definitely the Animal Collective thing. And it's not even like I dislike jam as a music. Like cause I had a like a year in high school where I listened to Phish, but I don't have, I don't…

Courtney: Really?

Melissa: You're just trying that personality on for a while? 

Rachel: I did, I was. I just don't have the attention span to sit for like, or stand in like a haze of like smoke for six hours. I like if the show is over, oh no, no wait it's not over. They're coming back and it's going to be like another six hours. And meanwhile I just wanna like go home and go to bed. And I felt that way even at 19, 20 years old, I tried. Like I tried to give it a chance cause my ex turns out was a huge Umphrey's McGee fan. Like that was his favorite band. I had no clue until like we started dating and then he starts taking me to these shows with his fraternity brothers. Like they would play bong Yahtzee before the show. 

Melissa: I'm sorry, what? 

Rachel: Bong Yahtzee. 

Melissa: Oh, I think I need an explanation of this.

Courtney: Yeah, what is this?

Rachel: It's basically just Yahtzee, but with bongs. 

Courtney: I'm so, I need more words.

Rachel: I don't even know the rules because I hadn't played, like, I didn't come from, I came from a Candy Land family, not a-  we didn't play Yatzee. I didn't know how it was played. I just followed his lead at the time and whenever he told me to smoke the like the bong, I smoked the bong. And then, we all like a bunch of us go to the Umphrey’s show, and then that's when I realized that I'm in a prison of my own mind. And I am like mute and can't speak or like give any indication as to how I am feeling. And I basically wanted to die. I thought I was dying. 

Melissa: Because of Umphrey's McGee or because of the pot?

Rachel:  Both. 

Melissa:  Yeah, mm-hmm. Fair.

Rachel: It just created this horrible trauma connection for me.

Melissa: And yet you didn't come in here saying that Umphrey’s McGee was the band that was ruined for you.

Rachel: Because Umphrey's McGee was never anything to me. I was like neutral to absolute bad. Like first didn't care, and then it just sank and became like this horrible association. But soon my ex started to realize that I wasn't down with the Umphrey’s and I wasn't down with like the pot. I'm very sensitive and I've always, like, I have no tolerance for much of any substance, which is why I've been very not purposefully straight edge. So anyhow, my ex starts to like realize that I'm not like down with what all his friends and his friends' girlfriends are doing. And my ex one day says to me, “Why can't you be more like my friend's girlfriends? Like they're down to go to Umphrey’s. They like  Umphrey’s. And like they're down to like play games.” And they're basically just like down for whatever I wanna do. 

Melissa: Or they're justbetter actors. 

Courtney: Well, basically he's saying to you, why can't you just be a different person and thanks, I hate it.

Rachel: Well, yes, exactly. When we had that argument, I drove back to my college campus and just sobbed. I was just crying in my car, realizing this is never, this is never gonna work. He doesn't actually like me, my heart is broken. So I call it like this loss of innocence because we had this like incredibly like romantic beginning with Broken Social Scene, my favorite band, and like “Lover’s Spit” in this moment. I'd listen to it and like think about him and our relationship, which was like the most meaningful relationship I had had till that point in my life after like many years of being a romantic and not having any relationship. And I knew what I had to do. I knew I had to break up with him, and I did. And it really fucking sucked, and it took a very long time to get over because he just would not speak to me after.

Melissa: But was he like, surprised that you dumped him after telling you…? I mean, he basically told you he didn't like your personality and wanted you to be a different person? So why…?

Courtney: He's emotionally immature. And I mean, for their age at the time that seems not too inappropriate, although not great. 

Rachel: I'm sure that he has matured since then. I don't know cause we don't keep in touch. But I do remember really well that when we were still together, there was this other girl that he had dated and I think she still really liked him. And I saw her kind of giving him the eye when we were at a party. And then after he and I broke up a couple years later, I saw them get back together. And now they are married and they have two kids. Their kids are beautiful. You know, in my few times out of the last however many years that I've, because we're still Facebook friends. You know, and I've looked at how his life is going on the outside, I'm like, “Oh, he got exactly what he was always going to want.” He wanted a woman who was… 

Courtney: …a supporting character. 

Rachel: Yeah, I mean, that's, that's kind of how it appears, at least superficially. And I think in my gut always knew that like, well he's gonna go on to dental school and inherit his uncle's practice and like live somewhere in New Jersey or Philadelphia. And his whole life is kind of planned out for him. My life is not gonna look that way. Don't know how it's going to be yet. But somewhere in like my gut, I knew this even when we were dating, but like it's been fascinating to see his life kind of roll out exactly the way I thought it would even 15 years ago. But I've still never really quite been able to listen to “Lover’s Spit” just because of what it represents for me at that time in my life. And it's like a paradise lost feeling when I think about it. And also like a man, you lied to me a little. Or you withheld some things. And then you didn't actually like me, you just projected what you thought about, you know, me onto me. Didn't like it, tried to change it. And then I broke up with you, and then you acted like butt hurt for the rest of time. At least that's my…

Melissa: Do you think, I mean, not to give him too much credit, but do you think because he had his life so planned out, do you think you were his like, attempt at like rebellion? Like, I'm gonna try something different, see if something changes. Like you could see yourself as this agent of change for him that he wasn't up to the challenge of.

Rachel: That's so funny. I really never thought about it that way because I wasn't like a rebellious person, even. I mean, he was like the one with a pot box of pot paraphernalia. Not that that's even so rebellious anymore, but this was also like 2006. I was a very like not risk adverse exactly, but I expressed my rebellion in like, “I got a piercing.” Like I got my arm, I got my nose pierced in college and then never took it out. And I had like bangs. I mean, I think we were just looking at like a manic pixie dream girl situation. 

Courtney: That's what I was gonna say. I was having, I mean, you're talking about 2006 and a strong manic pixie dream girl era. And I was thinking about like the idea that he's presenting to you is one that was being presented to us in the media a lot where this idealized woman who's extremely emotionally avoidant is what men wanted. And they weren't realizing that a lot of that was because there was so much of herself that she wouldn't show, that it was totally easy to project different things about yourself onto her that you liked. And the erratic and unreachableness of her was appealing at the time, for whatever weird reason.  

Rachel: That's so perfectly put. I could not agree more and, but I've never been able to hide my feelings or- even when I did try to go with the flow. I remember there was one night that I was meeting his best friend and we all smoked because this is just what they did. They just smoked a lot of pot. Again, no judgment. But it was just, I'm the kind of person who goes to the very dark, anxious coffin in the mind place. And I already, I think was working on my assertiveness. Like that's been my own like journey to try to like make my needs known in relationships. So, that night we were supposed to go out to dinner and then like eight o'clock comes and then nine o'clock comes and my stomach is eating itself and I'm like starving. And I know we're supposed to go out to dinner, but I'm like looking at my ex like, “We're gonna eat, right?” Because I'm dying. And I think he wasn't really picking up what I was putting down. And like but his best friend I remember like, took it as like, oh, okay, I guess we'll go. And then we sat down and we were eating and I think I got like a giant steak at the time. And his best friend kept like, poking like, like making comments about how, “Oh, are you happy now? Now you're eating?”

Courtney:  God, what a like high bar you set to continue to function as a human. You have to consume food. What the fuck?

Melissa: That's not very ladylike of you.

Courtney: A manic pixie dream girl would never.

Rachel: Oh, exactly. So I definitely felt, and now I'm able to like recognize like, oh, you just didn't want me to have like opinions and needs. So, he didn't want me to be a fully fleshed out human person cause my, my needs are actually relatively few. But I need to be like fed on time, and I need coffee when I need coffee, and other than that like I won't go out into nature and camp. 

Courtney: Fair. Completely reasonable. 

Rachel: I need like a bedtime. I'm just a scheduled person. Beyond that, I don't know. Like, but these things have always been, I think in my other relationships, treated as like, why are you so inflexible? That was the first one of these I thought for a while there's something wrong with me, like, am I too needy or high maintenance? But yeah, I don't feel that way about myself whatsoever anymore. This is a long time ago. But it all kind of goes back to like I found my person, “Lover’s Spit,” romance, and like yay. And then like oh my God, he doesn't actually like me. This is nothing like what I thought it was going to be. What do I do with that?

Melissa: But can we go back to that moment at the Broken Social Scene show? Because Kevin Drew, I mean, that is pretty ballsy in a way. Like you ended up in an awkward situation, how many other people in that room ended up in equally awkward situations or even more awkward situations because of that one little request?

Rachel: I mean I, that's a great question.

Melissa:  I feel like there must have been so many people who are like, “Absolutely not.” Or just being like, “Oh yeah, this is my moment.” Or I don't know. I feel like there's so many ways that could have played out that were not great. I mean, yeah, maybe someone found love in that room, who knows?

Rachel: Maybe someone will hear this and maybe they'll have been at that show, and maybe they'll have a story for something that happened to them that was either positive or deeply uncomfortable. 

Courtney: I mean, I am going to email Kevin Drew about this and be like, “I'd like you to account for Rachel's breakup.”

Rachel: I mean, for what it's worth, like I'm grateful for the moment, in a way, because it was kind of a fantasy-esque, like romcom moment that later had to be colored in by reality. And those are the two places that I live in my mind. I always like to try to make everything more. I'm kind of a grand gesture person. A real learning lesson about like how first romances or whatever can really be.

Courtney: I mean, it's a disillusionment with that sort of young romance and the overly romantic moments that don't pan out. It's nice when they do, but it's such a huge letdown when they don't. 

Rachel: Yeah, that was my first real like let down, and then cue Radiohead. 

Courtney: There's something about this story that's also popping out to me. It's a conversation we haven't got to have on this podcast before, but I think the trifecta of us, this is maybe an idea that resonates. So, we came of age in an era when a lot of men saw it as their duty in the relationship to educate us about music. And I think we're all people who have strong taste in music. And it's really difficult to merge your music taste with someone else's. And vetting someone through what kind of music that they like is a part of the dating process. And if it's not, you regret it later. And we're also people that get paid for our opinion on music, which makes you feel like you're an expert. You are effectively, that is what that means. So, this is an experience I've had too, like the amount of men who've tried to tell me about music or introduced me to bands or whatever, and not in a way that's like, “I really love this and I wanna share it with you.” But in a way that's much more top down like, “I'm going to teach you about this little lady.”

Rachel: Name five songs. 

Courtney: Yeah. Name five songs. First song is “Go Fuck Yourself.” 

Rachel: It's my favorite song. 

Courtney: Second song is “How Dare You?” 

Melissa: Oh, the B side. “How Dare You?,” that's a good one.

Courtney: Yeah, it's a deep cut, but one you deserve. So, I mean, that also comes up for me in listening to this story. Like the broad experience of that, where it comes to the point of not even educational but just like, “Why don't you just like my music?” When this is such an integral part of your personality and how you define yourself, it's fucking obnoxious.

Rachel: Well, it's painful. It was painful because another part of this in that relationship was I think one day he just said to himself, “I'm gonna like force feeded her Umphrey's.” And he put on a song that he really liked. He was like, “You gotta listen to this one part. Like the guitar is insane,” or something. And we're in, we're in his apartment. I remember this very clearly. And he just, he literally like, sits me down and like, wants me to hear this one, this one part, like, “Oh my God. It like, it'll change your life!” And my face showed whatever I was feeling listening to this one only part, and I was just like, you know, look, looking like I was a little kid and my parents were like giving me cough syrup. And he turned it off and he was like, “I don't get you. You know, you are this like music person and you're in the radio station. You have all these opinions. You, you are so close-minded. What you should be more open-minded about what you like or rather about music, like the full spectrum of stuff.” And I just was like, “Well, I don't have to like it.” And I didn't realize at the time that jam bands or, and the whole jams like culture, it's very much it's own scene.

Melissa: Oh, it's a cult. It is. They're like, “No, you don't understand until you go, man. Then once you go, you'd never want to leave.” It's so great. And you're like, mmmm.

Rachel: Let's call it what it is. Yeah, that, that just like hurt the fuck out of my feelings, I guess like just to be plain spoken about it because that's been this like continuing theme with people. Like cause after him, I dated someone who was a music editor professionally the few years later and he said the same thing to me. Like, I think he would try to put on the most experimental stuff he could dig up. And for me like I have a really wide range of tastes, but a lot of it comes back to pop music. Like, does it have a hook? Is it grabbing me? And then there's, you know, more atmospheric stuff I really like, but it doesn't matter, you know, I do my job well. But it was definitely like one of the kind of aha moments I've had in the aftermath of that other relationship was that at the time the National were really popping. And I liked them. I mean, I have evolved my feelings about them since the year 2008 but he wouldn't let me play the National like in our apartment cause he was like they're an indie template band. 

Courtney: He sounds like an asshole. 

Melissa: Jesus, that's exhausting.

Rachel: Yeah, so, it's been kind of fun to see like, “Oh yeah, you know, that band you thought would go nowhere? Well, they're incredibly famous now.” 

Courtney: Yeah, just kind of working with Taylor Swift now and NBD. It's fine. 

Rachel: NBD. Yeah, but you know, that was like a whole other level of like, “I'm gonna sit you down and like tell you what you should like.”

Melissa: See, I am so, so stubborn that there are entire bands that I have never heard and refused to listen to just because people were so adamant that I needed to listen to them. I've dated enough musicians and like music nerds, and I'm just like, no, I'm never listening to Mark Ribo. I don't care. There are actually numerous other bands that I'm not actually telling people that I've never heard because they're gonna start Rickrolling me or just sending them to me and I don't want it. But there are a lot of bands that I'm just like, people have been like, oh, this is the best band. This band is incredible. They've so influential. I'm like, I don't care. I'm not listening to them.

Rachel: Yeah, people ask me about my husband now, like if we met because of our shared jobs, like in music — like he's a musician and I'm a music writer. But no, I mean, we met on Tinder and sure, I found him, uh, attractive because he has like lovely long blonde hair and he looks good with a guitar and he is a very, very talented person. But I mean, we talk about music, but like that's only like, 1/8 of what we talk about. We talk about everything, and I wanna know his opinion on everything. I almost feel like he has not been allowed to talk about like, his full spectrum of thoughts because he's been kind of pigeonholed himself as a musician and oh, you only care about, you know, guitar collection and so on and so forth. So I think for us both, it's like very freeing. But I remember I first did look at his music collection cause he has quite an iTunes or Apple music or whatever. I just like looked at all his downloads and I, I was impressed. Not because of like the highbrow nature of it, or like the, oh wow, like you have this obscure thing. But he had like, I remember he had the Corrs’
“Breathless” on there. “Breathless” and Elliot Smith and Avril Lavine and like the War on Drugs, and Kurt Vile and, and, and, and. Like, so I was just like, “Wow, like you'll listen to anything. This is cool.” But like, we were like, “Hey, guess what? Like I love listening to Fuel, you know, in my car.” And we bonded over like Third Eye Blind, and these are bands I grew up with, honestly, like that I used to secretly enjoy, not tell anybody.

Melissa: Aw, so the way you know is true love is when you can share your embarrassing bands with somebody? 

Rachel: A hundred percent.

Courtney: Well, let's also talk about *IN SYNC, your podcast. So you are going through the history of songs that became big through TV or movies and talking about them, reliving them, putting us back in the place in time. And interviewing people that worked with them, music supervisors, or perhaps other folks as you go through the season. Tell me about where this idea came from and tell me about how you decided on that particular format. 

Rachel: Well, it kind of goes back to last summer when. The Stranger Things/Kate Bush moment happened.

And for my job I had to really dig into that and I really dug into the phenomenon of what Billboard called “bring back culture.” I like focused in on the history of it and like that column did very well. And so it was already kind of percolating in my mind. And at the time, before I even wrote the column and like all the Kate Bush/Stranger Things reaction on the internet happened, I kind of looked at my husband as we were watching together and I was like, “I think the Kate Bush is gonna really have a moment after this.” And then I like forgot about it So Later, who is now our executive producer at Gotham West, he has been following my work and he hit me up, was like, “Hey, like I'm looking to develop more podcasts. If you have an idea, I would love to help you develop it and like make it turn into a reality.” And I was like, “Wow, like, let me think. Well, on the off chance a big one doesn't exist maybe we could do something around these music moments in TV and film.” Because there are already so many in history, but since the Stranger Things phenomenon is happening, I bet like the top brass at Netflix, Hulu, whoever, like, people are going to notice this formula working, and they're probably gonna lean harder into music supervision just to get that moment that people can make their own on TikTok and then see the connectivity and the streams bumping up like it.  It's been almost a year since like I started kind of thinking about this and I have seen those moments kind of play out since like now we have like “Long Long Time,” Linda Ronstadt on The Last Of Us.

So we have an episode around that. I got my co-host, Aviv Rubenstein, involved. He is actually my downstairs neighbor, and he's a screenwriter, he teaches a screenwriting class. He is a musician himself. He's like this like Renaissance person. My husband got involved and like created some music for us. So the music you hear is written by him. So like it was this real like, “Wow like all these great people coming together. I'm very fortunate to know such talented people with so much knowledge.” And so that's, that's kind of the backstory. 

Courtney: Okay, one thing I wanna ask you about a serious question. I've interviewed so many music supervisors and it's really always hit or miss how much they will really tell you or how much they will take credit for. Like, some of the really big ones who work with really big showrunners just constantly say, “Oh, it was someone else's idea, or, oh, it was, you know, whoever's idea.” And you can't really get a sense of their involvement or their responsibility or even how much they knew about what was going on. So when I saw the description of your show, I was like, “I wonder who all they're gonna talk to?” Because I'm sure you've interviewed tons of music supervisors too, in your career. So is that part of the calculus of who you're booking as guests on the show? 

Rachel: Hmm, that's so interesting. Well, I think I've been lucky with the few music supervisors that I have interviewed, because I think I've actually interviewed fewer than you might expect. I've interviewed some big ones. So on our, our first episode, I reached out first to Gary Calamar, who is a very well known music supervisor and I had interviewed him about 10 years prior for another piece about Sia. And Sia wasn't making herself available, of course, cause this was like prime “Chandelier” era like with wig and no interviews whatsoever. And so it had, it had to be a right around and this moment in Six Feet Under that her that “Breathe Me” was on. This is like a real pivotal moment for both her and them and the show. So, like I felt like he was pretty forthcoming with me. He has talked about this 10 billion times, but I do want start the show off with a bang and use the, like one of the most classic examples I can think of, of a great music supervision moment and. I think it's gonna be like a figure it out as we go type of thing. And I think also, like while I do want have mostly a lot of music supervisors on to talk about these moments, I do wanna mix it up.

Melissa: So I know that we, music journalists, can get super, super granular and can sort of thrive in that, but at the same time, I'd love to talk about some of like the big needle drop moments that you're looking at or talking about. Cause like I know which ones have always stood out to me where you're just like, “Oh my God, that's amazing.” Where you just like get chills when you're watching whatever cause the music is so perfect for it. So like, which ones are you looking at? 

Rachel: Listeners can expect a conversation about Empire Records and “Sugar High,” and like I said before, we, we will talk about The Last of Us and Linda Ronstat's “Long Long Time.” And also we will talk about The Cramps’ “Goo Goo Muck” paired with Wednesday.

Cruel Intentions, we'll talk about “Bittersweet Symphony” and kind of like go into the whole story about the Verve and not having the rights to their own song. So we will get into that a little bit and we have a That Thing You Do episode with Tom Everett, Scott, . And right now we are currently plotting an episode on Do The Right Thing.

Courtney:  I mean, I'm already subscribed, but I'm very excited for all of these episodes. That all sounds great.

Melissa: Do you have any other, like, dream ones? 

Rachel: I would really like to get Alex Patsavas on the pod because she has just really like set the bar, especially for TV, between the, like The OC and Gossip Girl. Grey's Anatomy, I wasn't really a big Grey's Anatomy person when it first came out, only because I was in college at the time and I had a TV book. I wasn't watching TV. So I recently watched like the first season of Grey's Anatomy and I was like, oh my God, they're dancing on the table to Interpol. She really like changed the game. But the great thing too about this idea is just that everyone has a favorite music moment and like we've gotten so like friends and family and industry acquaintances being like, “Do an episode on this. Do an episode on that. Like do an episode on The Americans.” And, and then Aviv and I will have to be like, “Well, I haven't seen this, but have you seen that? Okay, well I'll catch up with on this.” And plus like, I'm much more plugged into TV, I think, and he is much more plugged into film. Like he really has that, the film space, like on lock. So we kind of depend on each other and it's nice. Rachel: Yeah. I hope it'll be a fun listen, like I'm, I'm hoping it'll just be like, a mood lifter for anyone. 

Courtney: I can tell you that it is, I’m already listening and it's great. It's very informative and everyone listening, if this sounds good to you. You can get it anywhere that you get podcasts, but we'll have a link in our show notes just in case you need it. Rachel, thank you so much. It was such a pleasure to have you on, and we're so excited for your podcast. Congrats on it.

Rachel: Thank you. Thank you guys so much for having me. I'm such a big fan of you both. 

Courtney: Oh, thank you. We're big fans of you too.